6 ms·

Since when is thinking about something a crime??? It is the act that is important.

by DamnYuppie 11y ago

feld 11y ago
Felony to talk about harming the president, even in jest.
- JetSpiegel 11y ago
  Even for Trump?
- techdragon 11y ago
  Just going to point out... Many dead presidents are still spinning in their graves from the day that became a crimp. That's not how the freedoms they strived to uphold are supposed to work.
awinter-py 11y ago
not so. intent is part of culpability in most violent crimes. hate crimes legislation takes it a step further. (It's beyond me how the 'thought' element of a hate crime isn't protected political speech).
- zyxley 11y ago
  > It's beyond me how the 'thought' element of a hate crime isn't protected political speech The courts of the US have literally always that freedom of speech is not unlimited.
  - awinter-py 11y ago
    In Reed v Town of Gilbert we ruled that statutory limitations on free speech must pass scrict scrutiny. You can argue for a compelling state interest in increasing the term of punishment for a violent offender based on his opinions about race. But (1) it's hard to argue the state interest in longer prison terms and (2) it's really hard to prove hate, so there's an easy due process appeal here.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
onion2k 11y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(criminal)#United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(criminal)#United... A criminal conspiracy is more than thinking about a crime, but a lot less than actually committing the act.
- Nelson69 11y ago
  The whole war on terror and this bulk collection is predicated on stopping crimes before they happen. It's a giant catch 22. Would stopping mass shootings and not-called-terorrism-but-domestic-terror be part of the use cases here? Like if you were to ignore some other laws and track gun ownership and purchases, maybe cross reference it with the use/prescription of certain medications and then cross reference that with anti-social posts on the internet or associations with certain call-themselve-patriots-but-really-hate-the-government type groups you might stop some mass shootings. Maybe save some actual lives. It's a terrible rabbit hole to go down, we need to stop it all ASAP.
  - taneq 11y ago
    The best thing about this whole setup is that it's unfalsifiable. Something bad happen? We need to work harder (read: accept more invasion of our privacy) to prevent such atrocities in future. Nothing bad happens? It's working, let's do it even more!
mycroft-holmes 11y ago
Well if you "think" all lives matter at Facebook... In our current hyper sensitive culture there's a lot of expectations that people think a certain way.
xg15 11y ago
I don't think it's about thinking, it's about the supposed probability that you will commit a crime in the future. And as for that I can imagine very well that laws can change, provided the technology is sold to politicians and to the public in the right way. E.g. "we now have technology that can prevent rapes of children before they even happen. So many children today live in the direct neighborhood of a potential rapist - and no-one could do anything because nobody knew. But now we can spot and remove the potential rapists and give the children back the pieceful and carefree life that they deserve. Unfortunately, as of now, making use of the technology would be in violation of certain laws - laws that made a lot of sense in the last century. But given the changes in society and the urgency of the matter, we feel a reformulation would be more than justified..."
vkou 11y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List 47,000 people are on it. Most of them have not committed any crime... Probably. We don't actually know, because if you're on it, the government won't tell you why - or even that you're on it.
- awqrre 11y ago
  Would buying a plane ticket online let you know that you are on it? If so then the airline companies should be able to at least provide a service for informing you that you are on the list, if you ask about it.
  - click170 11y ago
    It seems more likely that they let you buy a ticket but not board the plane, but that's a guess. Can anyone confirm?
    - anonbanker 11y ago
      usually, in the states, your ticket will have special letters on it, signifying your relative flight risk. There's countless stories of Laura Poitras and others discussing this. the reader is invited to !yt TSA Poitras.
  - click170 11y ago
    It seems more likely that they let you buy a ticket but not board the plane, but that's a guess. Can anyone confirm?

Since when is thinking about something a crime??? It is the act that is important.

feld 11y ago

Felony to talk about harming the president, even in jest.

JetSpiegel 11y ago
Even for Trump?
techdragon 11y ago
Just going to point out... Many dead presidents are still spinning in their graves from the day that became a crimp. That's not how the freedoms they strived to uphold are supposed to work.

awinter-py 11y ago

not so. intent is part of culpability in most violent crimes. hate crimes legislation takes it a step further. (It's beyond me how the 'thought' element of a hate crime isn't protected political speech).

zyxley 11y ago
> It's beyond me how the 'thought' element of a hate crime isn't protected political speech The courts of the US have literally always that freedom of speech is not unlimited.
- awinter-py 11y ago
  In Reed v Town of Gilbert we ruled that statutory limitations on free speech must pass scrict scrutiny. You can argue for a compelling state interest in increasing the term of punishment for a violent offender based on his opinions about race. But (1) it's hard to argue the state interest in longer prison terms and (2) it's really hard to prove hate, so there's an easy due process appeal here.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

onion2k 11y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(criminal)#United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(criminal)#United... A criminal conspiracy is more than thinking about a crime, but a lot less than actually committing the act.

Nelson69 11y ago
The whole war on terror and this bulk collection is predicated on stopping crimes before they happen. It's a giant catch 22. Would stopping mass shootings and not-called-terorrism-but-domestic-terror be part of the use cases here? Like if you were to ignore some other laws and track gun ownership and purchases, maybe cross reference it with the use/prescription of certain medications and then cross reference that with anti-social posts on the internet or associations with certain call-themselve-patriots-but-really-hate-the-government type groups you might stop some mass shootings. Maybe save some actual lives. It's a terrible rabbit hole to go down, we need to stop it all ASAP.
- taneq 11y ago
  The best thing about this whole setup is that it's unfalsifiable. Something bad happen? We need to work harder (read: accept more invasion of our privacy) to prevent such atrocities in future. Nothing bad happens? It's working, let's do it even more!

mycroft-holmes 11y ago

Well if you "think" all lives matter at Facebook... In our current hyper sensitive culture there's a lot of expectations that people think a certain way.

xg15 11y ago

I don't think it's about thinking, it's about the supposed probability that you will commit a crime in the future. And as for that I can imagine very well that laws can change, provided the technology is sold to politicians and to the public in the right way. E.g. "we now have technology that can prevent rapes of children before they even happen. So many children today live in the direct neighborhood of a potential rapist - and no-one could do anything because nobody knew. But now we can spot and remove the potential rapists and give the children back the pieceful and carefree life that they deserve. Unfortunately, as of now, making use of the technology would be in violation of certain laws - laws that made a lot of sense in the last century. But given the changes in society and the urgency of the matter, we feel a reformulation would be more than justified..."

vkou 11y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List 47,000 people are on it. Most of them have not committed any crime... Probably. We don't actually know, because if you're on it, the government won't tell you why - or even that you're on it.

awqrre 11y ago
Would buying a plane ticket online let you know that you are on it? If so then the airline companies should be able to at least provide a service for informing you that you are on the list, if you ask about it.
- click170 11y ago
  It seems more likely that they let you buy a ticket but not board the plane, but that's a guess. Can anyone confirm?
  - anonbanker 11y ago
    usually, in the states, your ticket will have special letters on it, signifying your relative flight risk. There's countless stories of Laura Poitras and others discussing this. the reader is invited to !yt TSA Poitras.
- click170 11y ago
  It seems more likely that they let you buy a ticket but not board the plane, but that's a guess. Can anyone confirm?