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Its not the war blogs, its the general anti-US sentiment that liberal sites tend to lean towards. But when Russia or China launch some shitshack new weapons sys

Its not the war blogs, its the general anti-US sentiment that liberal sites tend to lean towards. But when Russia or China launch some shitshack new weapons system, suddenly everyone is applauding. Thankfully, this stuff is easy to ignore. I grew up hearing how the F-16 was a nightmare and then later the F-22. The loudmouth knee-jerk anti-US types have long been discredited. Making weapons system is difficult and having an open-ish process in a democracy where milestones and delays are publicised should be a net positive, but it just gives the nutters more ammunition to whine on the internet. Autocratic states dont have this problem as everything is secret and dissent leads to being served up polonium tea or sent to a "re-education" camp. Frankly, this forum isn't mature enough to discuess the US weapons systems because the upvoted commentary will be overly critical hit pieces bordering on propaganda or "whataboutism." No one actually wants to discuss the tech here, how difficult this kind of tech is, the long tail of military technology, etc. This is going to be a very impressive plane and one China, Iran, and Russia absolutely do not want to see in the air.

Mikeb85 11y ago
While Chinese defence tech is still quite far behind, Russian tech has always outperformed western expectations. Most often when we see Russian systems in a theatre of war, it's 30-40 year old, poorly maintained systems in the hands of poorly trained pilots/soldiers. I don't recall US pilots ever even going up against 80's generation planes like the MiG-29 or Su-27... Every time Russian technology, in the hands of competent people, is put on display, it does very well (witness the performance of Indian Su-30s in various wargames, and modern Russian planes in Georgia/Syria). And of course, being in tech, I'd have thought you'd have come across a few Russian programmers/engineers - for the most part they're all pretty damn awesome.
- drzaiusapelord 11y ago
  Well, we certainly have seen an F-14 go against a MiG-23. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e3Fu2zeido https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e3Fu2zeido Anything more modern would probably have led to WWIII. I think the rest of your comment is confirmation bias: this ethnic group/nationality is good/bad depending on where you sit on the old racism spectrum. Its also worth mentioning that a lot of the advances of the SU were due to subjugating 15 independent states, usually via military means, and suddenly having a lot of more talent on tap. Often, non-Russian slavs didn't get credit for Soviet innovations due to horrific politics of communism and the Soviets system in general. So crediting "Russians" for many of these innovations is ahistoric and propagandist. The constant applause surrounding the SU is fairly amusing. If they were so great, why aren't they around today? If Russia is so chock full of greatness why is it running a falling apart economy and have degenerated into a kleptocratic petrostate that makes most middle east dictatorships look progressive and economically sound? I get it, you don't like the US and the EU, but you'd have to be crazy to appreciate the SU and Russia if your complaints are focused on the US not being "Bernie Sanders" enough for you. >Every time Russian technology, in the hands of competent people, is put on display, it does very well Well, when your targets are Ukranian women and children, yes, the casualty rate is impressive, but that's far from a real military engagement against another nation state. We have yet to see these arms tested against a proper western foe, and for good reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Ukrainian_crisis#Total_deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Ukrainian_cr...
  - Mikeb85 11y ago
    > Well, we certainly have seen an F-14 go against a MiG-23. Did the Libyan MiGs fire a single shot? Of course I know the answer, so not sure how this can be considered any sort of indicator of the gross inferiority of Russian tech. In fact, based on the engagement itself, and subsequent after-math, a reasonable assumption would be that they goaded the US into the confrontation, as an attempt to gain international support... > I think the rest of your comment is confirmation bias: this ethnic group/nationality is good/bad depending on where you sit on the old racism spectrum. Interesting that you equate my pointing out that Russians are generally well educated and that they produce good engineers with racism. Next if I say Russia produces plenty of good chess players you'll also call me racist? Fact is, their culture encourages people to pursue these activities, and they have fairly high educational standards. Same can be said for many countries who have a strong focus on education, who produce good engineers; witness the recent Indian space program, which is on a relatively modest budget, definitely 'punching above it's weight class'. > The constant applause surrounding the SU is fairly amusing What does my post have to do with the SU, and any economic or political elements of the SU? It's purely about technology. > If Russia is so chock full of greatness why is it running a falling apart economy and have degenerated into a kleptocratic petrostate that makes most middle east dictatorships look progressive and economically sound? I get it, you don't like the US and the EU, but you'd have to be crazy to appreciate the SU and Russia if your complaints are focused on the US not being "Bernie Sanders" enough for you. Again, where are you getting this? Pointing out that they produce relatively advanced technology for their current economic state? And it's the truth, from Sputnik to Mir to their current space program, their defence programs, etc... You're right, Russia's economic output is behind the US, and they somehow still have the ability to put people into space. The rest of it is off-topic, is not related to anything I said, and it's obvious you're trying to offend. > Well, when your targets are Ukranian women and children, yes, the casualty rate is impressive, but that's far from a real military engagement against another nation state. We have yet to see these arms tested against a proper western foe, and for good reason. First of all, the verdict is still out on the exact amount of Russian involvement in Ukraine (especially since the next Ukrainian Prime Minister used to work for the US State Dept, reinforcing the view that the US was involved in the overthrow of the previous government). Second, from a purely objective standpoint, they didn't use air power vs. Ukraine. Anyhow, Russia hasn't gone up against the west, nor vice versa. Russia did rout the Georgian military in a week. And they are the only effective power in Syria right now. Take that for what it is. US analysts have admitted Russian tech is more advanced than they thought, especially in the realm of electronic warfare. BTW, forgive me for having a nuanced view of the world. For not bringing political beliefs into a discussion about TECHNOLOGY. I have Russian friends too, and I'm of Ukrainian background. My wife is black (and an immigrant from a region where the inhabitants were once slaves from both Africa and India), I live in the west, and speak multiple languages. I know people from every corner of the world. Shoot me for not believing in a world where everything is black and white, where it's us vs. them.
- PerfectDlite 11y ago
  > I don't recall US pilots ever even going up against 80's generation planes like the MiG-29 or Su-27... They did, in Desert Storm operation. And you know what? MiG-29s and Su-25s were shot down without any retaliation. Yugoslavian Mig-29s were also an easy target.
  - Mikeb85 11y ago
    You're right, I missed a few encounters. Most were in highly asymmetrical conflicts, and it seems all reports of MiGs shooting down western targets were downplayed as 'mechanical failures' or 'friendly fire'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29#Operational_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29#Operational_his...
- gherkin0 11y ago
  > Russian tech has always outperformed western expectations. The MIG-25 didn't, IIRC. The US over-estimated its capabilities, and thus built a far more capable aircraft in response (the F-15).
mineshaftgap 11y ago
>The loudmouth knee-jerk anti-US types have long been discredited. If only.

Mikeb85 11y ago

While Chinese defence tech is still quite far behind, Russian tech has always outperformed western expectations. Most often when we see Russian systems in a theatre of war, it's 30-40 year old, poorly maintained systems in the hands of poorly trained pilots/soldiers. I don't recall US pilots ever even going up against 80's generation planes like the MiG-29 or Su-27... Every time Russian technology, in the hands of competent people, is put on display, it does very well (witness the performance of Indian Su-30s in various wargames, and modern Russian planes in Georgia/Syria). And of course, being in tech, I'd have thought you'd have come across a few Russian programmers/engineers - for the most part they're all pretty damn awesome.

drzaiusapelord 11y ago
Well, we certainly have seen an F-14 go against a MiG-23. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e3Fu2zeido https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e3Fu2zeido Anything more modern would probably have led to WWIII. I think the rest of your comment is confirmation bias: this ethnic group/nationality is good/bad depending on where you sit on the old racism spectrum. Its also worth mentioning that a lot of the advances of the SU were due to subjugating 15 independent states, usually via military means, and suddenly having a lot of more talent on tap. Often, non-Russian slavs didn't get credit for Soviet innovations due to horrific politics of communism and the Soviets system in general. So crediting "Russians" for many of these innovations is ahistoric and propagandist. The constant applause surrounding the SU is fairly amusing. If they were so great, why aren't they around today? If Russia is so chock full of greatness why is it running a falling apart economy and have degenerated into a kleptocratic petrostate that makes most middle east dictatorships look progressive and economically sound? I get it, you don't like the US and the EU, but you'd have to be crazy to appreciate the SU and Russia if your complaints are focused on the US not being "Bernie Sanders" enough for you. >Every time Russian technology, in the hands of competent people, is put on display, it does very well Well, when your targets are Ukranian women and children, yes, the casualty rate is impressive, but that's far from a real military engagement against another nation state. We have yet to see these arms tested against a proper western foe, and for good reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Ukrainian_crisis#Total_deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Ukrainian_cr...
- Mikeb85 11y ago
  > Well, we certainly have seen an F-14 go against a MiG-23. Did the Libyan MiGs fire a single shot? Of course I know the answer, so not sure how this can be considered any sort of indicator of the gross inferiority of Russian tech. In fact, based on the engagement itself, and subsequent after-math, a reasonable assumption would be that they goaded the US into the confrontation, as an attempt to gain international support... > I think the rest of your comment is confirmation bias: this ethnic group/nationality is good/bad depending on where you sit on the old racism spectrum. Interesting that you equate my pointing out that Russians are generally well educated and that they produce good engineers with racism. Next if I say Russia produces plenty of good chess players you'll also call me racist? Fact is, their culture encourages people to pursue these activities, and they have fairly high educational standards. Same can be said for many countries who have a strong focus on education, who produce good engineers; witness the recent Indian space program, which is on a relatively modest budget, definitely 'punching above it's weight class'. > The constant applause surrounding the SU is fairly amusing What does my post have to do with the SU, and any economic or political elements of the SU? It's purely about technology. > If Russia is so chock full of greatness why is it running a falling apart economy and have degenerated into a kleptocratic petrostate that makes most middle east dictatorships look progressive and economically sound? I get it, you don't like the US and the EU, but you'd have to be crazy to appreciate the SU and Russia if your complaints are focused on the US not being "Bernie Sanders" enough for you. Again, where are you getting this? Pointing out that they produce relatively advanced technology for their current economic state? And it's the truth, from Sputnik to Mir to their current space program, their defence programs, etc... You're right, Russia's economic output is behind the US, and they somehow still have the ability to put people into space. The rest of it is off-topic, is not related to anything I said, and it's obvious you're trying to offend. > Well, when your targets are Ukranian women and children, yes, the casualty rate is impressive, but that's far from a real military engagement against another nation state. We have yet to see these arms tested against a proper western foe, and for good reason. First of all, the verdict is still out on the exact amount of Russian involvement in Ukraine (especially since the next Ukrainian Prime Minister used to work for the US State Dept, reinforcing the view that the US was involved in the overthrow of the previous government). Second, from a purely objective standpoint, they didn't use air power vs. Ukraine. Anyhow, Russia hasn't gone up against the west, nor vice versa. Russia did rout the Georgian military in a week. And they are the only effective power in Syria right now. Take that for what it is. US analysts have admitted Russian tech is more advanced than they thought, especially in the realm of electronic warfare. BTW, forgive me for having a nuanced view of the world. For not bringing political beliefs into a discussion about TECHNOLOGY. I have Russian friends too, and I'm of Ukrainian background. My wife is black (and an immigrant from a region where the inhabitants were once slaves from both Africa and India), I live in the west, and speak multiple languages. I know people from every corner of the world. Shoot me for not believing in a world where everything is black and white, where it's us vs. them.
PerfectDlite 11y ago
> I don't recall US pilots ever even going up against 80's generation planes like the MiG-29 or Su-27... They did, in Desert Storm operation. And you know what? MiG-29s and Su-25s were shot down without any retaliation. Yugoslavian Mig-29s were also an easy target.
- Mikeb85 11y ago
  You're right, I missed a few encounters. Most were in highly asymmetrical conflicts, and it seems all reports of MiGs shooting down western targets were downplayed as 'mechanical failures' or 'friendly fire'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29#Operational_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29#Operational_his...
gherkin0 11y ago
> Russian tech has always outperformed western expectations. The MIG-25 didn't, IIRC. The US over-estimated its capabilities, and thus built a far more capable aircraft in response (the F-15).

mineshaftgap 11y ago

>The loudmouth knee-jerk anti-US types have long been discredited. If only.