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Though to be fair, the software isn't due to reach 1.0 until 2050 (assuming the pentagon can scrape up another billion dollars to train ada programmers). No sur

Though to be fair, the software isn't due to reach 1.0 until 2050 (assuming the pentagon can scrape up another billion dollars to train ada programmers). No surprise that alpha software is bug-ridden.

msbarnett 11y ago
> assuming the pentagon can scrape up another billion dollars to train ada programmers The F-35's avionics are mostly in C++. The F-22 was the last fighter program to use Ada heavily AFAIK.
- jpgvm 11y ago
  That seems sad. Ada seems like it would reduce costs significantly in programs that have a very long life.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
zodPod 11y ago
Holy CRAP. Seriously?! That's insane! How is it going to take them more than 30 years to develop it?!
- smeyer 11y ago
  >Seriously?! No. Here's a timeline of the plane so far [0] and a page that includes some details from 2014 including a master schedule and a production status [1]. The 2050 comment was presumably an exaggeration referencing the frequent problems and delays with the development. [0] http://aviationweek.com/F-35Milestones http://aviationweek.com/F-35Milestones [1] http://intercepts.defensenews.com/2014/09/the-current-status-of-the-f-35-in-three-charts/ http://intercepts.defensenews.com/2014/09/the-current-status...
  - zodPod 11y ago
    Ah, alright, thank you!
Someone1234 11y ago
According to this Stackoverflow answer the aircraft is mostly C/C++, no wonder they're having so many issues: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9827176/what-is-the-predominant-programming-language-used-for-the-f35-lightning-ii-aircr https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9827176/what-is-the-pred... I'm not sure there is anything I'd build with such insecure languages in 2016, let alone an aircraft or flight system.
- blackguardx 11y ago
  Do you know what an embedded system is?
  - mikestew 11y ago
    Well, if we're going to be patronizing, do you know that languages other than C/C++ can be used with embedded systems?
    - blackguardx 11y ago
      I was genuinely curious. You can use any language you want for an embedded system as long as it has enough resources to run the runtime environment or the interpreter. In many (most?) cases, it isn't worth the overhead to do that. There isn't just one CPU in this aircraft. There are probably dozens or hundreds. Not all of them can be powerful without undesirable tradeoffs.
      - mikestew 11y ago
        I was genuinely curious. That being the case, I wish I wasn't too late to edit my comment to be a tad less snarky. That said, I understand a bit of the trade-offs involved (though far from an expert). I think there's room for discussion somewhere in the middle. The parent took one extreme ("you had it coming using C/C++"), and at first reading your comment stated the opposite ("C/C++ is just what you use on embedded"). Knowing very little on the subject at hand (embedded avionics SW), I'd still argue that maybe there at least be a discussion around using something like Ada for critical systems? (Yeah, I know what a big hit Ada is with embedded folk, at least the ones I hang around.)
feld 11y ago
If it was ada I suspect it wouldn't be in such poor shape
- varjag 11y ago
  There's been enough of buggy systems written in Ada, the most infamous perhaps leading to Ariane crash. It's no guarantee of anything.
  - Jtsummers 11y ago
    http://www.adapower.com/index.php?Command=Class&ClassID=FAQ&CID=328 http://www.adapower.com/index.php?Command=Class&ClassID=FAQ&... You are correct. But the Ariane crash was the result of improper testing when reusing (valid and correct) code in a new situation that resulted in the crash. Better testing and development procedures would have, potentially, prevented this. And it could have occurred regardless of the languages involved. What Ada does bring to the table, however, over C, C++ and Fortran (the other 3 primary languages used in the embedded avionics world) is a much better type system and concurrency system that gives greater confidence when developing the system. Much as the ML worlds type system reduces or eliminates certain categories of errors, or moves them to compile time rather than runtime. Where they are still detected in runtime, Ada also offers, particularly during test and development, much greater ability to determine the earliest location of the error if the type system is being exercised properly.

msbarnett 11y ago

> assuming the pentagon can scrape up another billion dollars to train ada programmers The F-35's avionics are mostly in C++. The F-22 was the last fighter program to use Ada heavily AFAIK.

jpgvm 11y ago
That seems sad. Ada seems like it would reduce costs significantly in programs that have a very long life.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

zodPod 11y ago

Holy CRAP. Seriously?! That's insane! How is it going to take them more than 30 years to develop it?!

smeyer 11y ago
>Seriously?! No. Here's a timeline of the plane so far [0] and a page that includes some details from 2014 including a master schedule and a production status [1]. The 2050 comment was presumably an exaggeration referencing the frequent problems and delays with the development. [0] http://aviationweek.com/F-35Milestones http://aviationweek.com/F-35Milestones [1] http://intercepts.defensenews.com/2014/09/the-current-status-of-the-f-35-in-three-charts/ http://intercepts.defensenews.com/2014/09/the-current-status...
- zodPod 11y ago
  Ah, alright, thank you!

Someone1234 11y ago

According to this Stackoverflow answer the aircraft is mostly C/C++, no wonder they're having so many issues: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9827176/what-is-the-predominant-programming-language-used-for-the-f35-lightning-ii-aircr https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9827176/what-is-the-pred... I'm not sure there is anything I'd build with such insecure languages in 2016, let alone an aircraft or flight system.

blackguardx 11y ago
Do you know what an embedded system is?
- mikestew 11y ago
  Well, if we're going to be patronizing, do you know that languages other than C/C++ can be used with embedded systems?
  - blackguardx 11y ago
    I was genuinely curious. You can use any language you want for an embedded system as long as it has enough resources to run the runtime environment or the interpreter. In many (most?) cases, it isn't worth the overhead to do that. There isn't just one CPU in this aircraft. There are probably dozens or hundreds. Not all of them can be powerful without undesirable tradeoffs.
    - mikestew 11y ago
      I was genuinely curious. That being the case, I wish I wasn't too late to edit my comment to be a tad less snarky. That said, I understand a bit of the trade-offs involved (though far from an expert). I think there's room for discussion somewhere in the middle. The parent took one extreme ("you had it coming using C/C++"), and at first reading your comment stated the opposite ("C/C++ is just what you use on embedded"). Knowing very little on the subject at hand (embedded avionics SW), I'd still argue that maybe there at least be a discussion around using something like Ada for critical systems? (Yeah, I know what a big hit Ada is with embedded folk, at least the ones I hang around.)

feld 11y ago

If it was ada I suspect it wouldn't be in such poor shape

varjag 11y ago
There's been enough of buggy systems written in Ada, the most infamous perhaps leading to Ariane crash. It's no guarantee of anything.
- Jtsummers 11y ago
  http://www.adapower.com/index.php?Command=Class&ClassID=FAQ&CID=328 http://www.adapower.com/index.php?Command=Class&ClassID=FAQ&... You are correct. But the Ariane crash was the result of improper testing when reusing (valid and correct) code in a new situation that resulted in the crash. Better testing and development procedures would have, potentially, prevented this. And it could have occurred regardless of the languages involved. What Ada does bring to the table, however, over C, C++ and Fortran (the other 3 primary languages used in the embedded avionics world) is a much better type system and concurrency system that gives greater confidence when developing the system. Much as the ML worlds type system reduces or eliminates certain categories of errors, or moves them to compile time rather than runtime. Where they are still detected in runtime, Ada also offers, particularly during test and development, much greater ability to determine the earliest location of the error if the type system is being exercised properly.