4 ms·

I think AlphaGo is playing very natural go! The 5th move shoulder hit that is the subject of so much commentary would fit into the theory of go that players lik

by z0r 11y ago

I think AlphaGo is playing very natural go! The 5th move shoulder hit that is the subject of so much commentary would fit into the theory of go that players like Takemiya espouse. It has chosen to emphasize influence and speed and has not been afraid to give solid territory early in the games so far. It's very exciting play but not inhuman play, and if professionals are allowed to train with AlphaGo it will surely usher in the next decade's style of play. Don't forget that the game has changed every 10 years for the past 100 years, it should not be surprising that it is continuing to change now!

zeven7 11y ago
It didn't look like a Takemiya-style move to me. Takemiya tends to play for a huge moyo in the center. AlphaGo had no such moyo. It wasn't only a strange move; it was also a strange time to play it, and it definitely went against conventional wisdom.
- z0r 11y ago
  The result of the shoulder hit coordinated with black's bottom formation, and the extension on the 4th line that threatened to cut white's stones off was flexible and could have easily formed an impressive moyo on the bottom. It did not play out that way, but I think that black's strategy was as cosmic as anything Takemiya might have played. His games did not always end with a giant moyo, he was also very flexible. I hope to see written reactions from professional players, and maybe Takemiya will give AlphaGo's style his endorsement :) Some examples of 5th line early shoulder hits in recent professional play - these situations are not the same as the one seen in today's game, but something like a 5th line shoulder hit is always going to be highly contextual and creative. http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/26929/ http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/26929/ (move 23) http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/69545/ http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/69545/ (move 22) http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/71408/ http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/71408/ (move 22) http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/4663/ http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/4663/ (move 9)
  - zeven7 11y ago
    Thanks for linking to the examples! That is interesting indeed.
  - kerkeslager 11y ago
    Those games are really interesting. In the first two, they are both ladder-breakers played by stronger players; my guess is the weaker players set up the ladders assuming that the stronger players wouldn't play a fifth line shoulder hit to break them, and the stronger player didn't back down. In the third game, the fifth line shoulder hits aren't that surprising; they're reductions against frameworks that were allowed to get big in exchange for growing an opposing framework; they're locally bad moves but the global benefits are clear; you'll note that both players play a fifth line shoulder hit. The only one I can't parse is the last one. There are a lot of variations where I want to know what black's plan is.

by z0r 11y ago

zeven7 11y ago

It didn't look like a Takemiya-style move to me. Takemiya tends to play for a huge moyo in the center. AlphaGo had no such moyo. It wasn't only a strange move; it was also a strange time to play it, and it definitely went against conventional wisdom.

z0r 11y ago
The result of the shoulder hit coordinated with black's bottom formation, and the extension on the 4th line that threatened to cut white's stones off was flexible and could have easily formed an impressive moyo on the bottom. It did not play out that way, but I think that black's strategy was as cosmic as anything Takemiya might have played. His games did not always end with a giant moyo, he was also very flexible. I hope to see written reactions from professional players, and maybe Takemiya will give AlphaGo's style his endorsement :) Some examples of 5th line early shoulder hits in recent professional play - these situations are not the same as the one seen in today's game, but something like a 5th line shoulder hit is always going to be highly contextual and creative. http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/26929/ http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/26929/ (move 23) http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/69545/ http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/69545/ (move 22) http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/71408/ http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/71408/ (move 22) http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/4663/ http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/4663/ (move 9)
- zeven7 11y ago
  Thanks for linking to the examples! That is interesting indeed.
- kerkeslager 11y ago
  Those games are really interesting. In the first two, they are both ladder-breakers played by stronger players; my guess is the weaker players set up the ladders assuming that the stronger players wouldn't play a fifth line shoulder hit to break them, and the stronger player didn't back down. In the third game, the fifth line shoulder hits aren't that surprising; they're reductions against frameworks that were allowed to get big in exchange for growing an opposing framework; they're locally bad moves but the global benefits are clear; you'll note that both players play a fifth line shoulder hit. The only one I can't parse is the last one. There are a lot of variations where I want to know what black's plan is.