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It's not just arrogant and cruel, it's also logically inconsistent. Everything libertarian leads to an everyone for themselves hellscape. But this in particular

It's not just arrogant and cruel, it's also logically inconsistent. Everything libertarian leads to an everyone for themselves hellscape. But this in particular would indicate you shouldn't help someone in a car accident because of driving in bad weather, or really driving at all. They took the risk, the risk was well known, so screw them while they bleed to death in the car, right?

mindcrime 11y ago
Everything libertarian leads to an everyone for themselves hellscape How in the world do you arrive at that conclusion? Personally, I can't imagine anything being further from the truth...
- Klinky 11y ago
  It seems the Libertarian mindset would lead someone who survived a plane crash to think that they chose the right seat, and those who died must have had poor seat choosing ability. Instead of it just being chaotic luck. The Libertarian mindset heavily relies on survival bias. There are a lot of things outside of ones control in life, and while you can try to shape the direction in your life with personal choice, not everyone starts from the same spot, not all situations are the same, and not all risks pay off.
  - mindcrime 11y ago
    It seems the Libertarian mindset would lead someone who survived a plane crash to think that they chose the right seat, and those who died must have had poor seat choosing ability. TBH, that sounds like a complete caricature of a Libertarian thinker from where I'm sitting. Maybe there are people like that out there, and maybe some of them self-identify as Libertarians (or libertarians) but there's nothing inherent in the Libertarian world-view that would lead to such a position. There are a lot of things outside of ones control in life, and while you can try to shape the direction in your life with personal choice, not everyone starts from the same spot, not all situations are the same, and not all risks pay off. That's absolutely true, and of the Libertarians I know, I don't think I know a single one who would contest that. Source: am a Libertarian.
    - Klinky 11y ago
      Probably not all Libertarians are the same, but most I've dealt with have a selfish arrogance about the outcome of the choices they've made, and ignorance about the plight of others. There is also a strong desire to dismantle regulations and safety nets, because of a belief that it would bring immediate benefit themselves. The Libertopian ideal really does sound like a privatized "hellscape", which the Libertarians obviously think they would be the CEOs of.
      - mindcrime 11y ago
        There is also a strong desire to dismantle regulations and safety nets, because of a belief that it would bring immediate benefit them. I would guess that most of those people are not terribly well educated in the basis of Libertarian thought. That's a pretty naive interpretation of it anyway. Anyway, I'd love to continue this conversation, but it's probably veering close to (or into) "off topic" territory, so I'll just drop this here.
      - vectorjohn 11y ago
        Yeah, not just ignorance, but willful ignorance. You have to try really hard not to see how much luck and chaos has to do with every day life.
      - logfromblammo 11y ago
        There are more varieties of libertarian than there are varieties of authoritarian. Similarly, there are more types of atheist than there are religions. As a class of people, there is only one factor that ties all of them together under a single ideological umbrella. By all other measures, their opinions can vary wildly. The capital-L Libertarians, otherwise known as the members of the Libertarian Party, are just the tip of the small-l libertarian iceberg. For those who have chosen to abandon political participation and evangelism, you may never even realize they are libertarian at all. There are some godawful douchebag libertarians. There are criminal fraud libertarians. And there are also libertarians that are outwardly indistinguishable from everybody else, aside from little things like laughing at something when a joke was not intended. Do you remember Dennis, the 37-year-old not-an-old-woman from Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail? Do you recall how he was attempting to explain the anarcho-syndicalist commune to King Arthur? Anarcho-syndicalists are a type of libertarian. Just as Arthur dismissed him as completely useless, modern mainstream politics ignores and marginalizes most libertarian groups. And they do it to each other, as well. No one is better at denouncing a particular type of libertarianism than another type of libertarian.
rubicon33 11y ago
"Everything libertarian leads to an everyone for themselves hellscape." When you take a black and white perspective like this, it's evident you don't have any intention of understanding your fellow man's position. In this way, you yourself are proving logically inconsistent. You have deemed yourself intelligent enough to judge me as being wrong, in my decision to judge others? So let me get this straight, I am wrong because I believe myself intelligent, rational, thoughtful, and considerate enough, to pass fair judgment on to others. Yet you are not wrong for your rational and thoughtful analysis and subsequent judgment of my belief? That's not just logically inconsistent, it's hypocritical. Regarding your example: Again, things are not as black and white as you would like them to be. Each scenario takes a requires a multitude of factors be considered. Yes, the driver chose to drive in bad weather, which certainly put themselves at risk. I tend to have no problem helping people, who just hurt themselves. But what about the other drivers? Did he put them at risk too? Sure, but those drivers implicitly took the same risk, when they chose to driver in bad weather. There's an additional consideration, that of the acceptability of someone's behavior. Driving is a socially accepted practice, and one that is sometimes a necessary task. I can extend compassion for them, by assuming the needed to engage in this socially accepted practice of driving, despite the risks.

mindcrime 11y ago

Everything libertarian leads to an everyone for themselves hellscape How in the world do you arrive at that conclusion? Personally, I can't imagine anything being further from the truth...

Klinky 11y ago
It seems the Libertarian mindset would lead someone who survived a plane crash to think that they chose the right seat, and those who died must have had poor seat choosing ability. Instead of it just being chaotic luck. The Libertarian mindset heavily relies on survival bias. There are a lot of things outside of ones control in life, and while you can try to shape the direction in your life with personal choice, not everyone starts from the same spot, not all situations are the same, and not all risks pay off.
- mindcrime 11y ago
  It seems the Libertarian mindset would lead someone who survived a plane crash to think that they chose the right seat, and those who died must have had poor seat choosing ability. TBH, that sounds like a complete caricature of a Libertarian thinker from where I'm sitting. Maybe there are people like that out there, and maybe some of them self-identify as Libertarians (or libertarians) but there's nothing inherent in the Libertarian world-view that would lead to such a position. There are a lot of things outside of ones control in life, and while you can try to shape the direction in your life with personal choice, not everyone starts from the same spot, not all situations are the same, and not all risks pay off. That's absolutely true, and of the Libertarians I know, I don't think I know a single one who would contest that. Source: am a Libertarian.
  - Klinky 11y ago
    Probably not all Libertarians are the same, but most I've dealt with have a selfish arrogance about the outcome of the choices they've made, and ignorance about the plight of others. There is also a strong desire to dismantle regulations and safety nets, because of a belief that it would bring immediate benefit themselves. The Libertopian ideal really does sound like a privatized "hellscape", which the Libertarians obviously think they would be the CEOs of.
    - mindcrime 11y ago
      There is also a strong desire to dismantle regulations and safety nets, because of a belief that it would bring immediate benefit them. I would guess that most of those people are not terribly well educated in the basis of Libertarian thought. That's a pretty naive interpretation of it anyway. Anyway, I'd love to continue this conversation, but it's probably veering close to (or into) "off topic" territory, so I'll just drop this here.
    - vectorjohn 11y ago
      Yeah, not just ignorance, but willful ignorance. You have to try really hard not to see how much luck and chaos has to do with every day life.
    - logfromblammo 11y ago
      There are more varieties of libertarian than there are varieties of authoritarian. Similarly, there are more types of atheist than there are religions. As a class of people, there is only one factor that ties all of them together under a single ideological umbrella. By all other measures, their opinions can vary wildly. The capital-L Libertarians, otherwise known as the members of the Libertarian Party, are just the tip of the small-l libertarian iceberg. For those who have chosen to abandon political participation and evangelism, you may never even realize they are libertarian at all. There are some godawful douchebag libertarians. There are criminal fraud libertarians. And there are also libertarians that are outwardly indistinguishable from everybody else, aside from little things like laughing at something when a joke was not intended. Do you remember Dennis, the 37-year-old not-an-old-woman from Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail? Do you recall how he was attempting to explain the anarcho-syndicalist commune to King Arthur? Anarcho-syndicalists are a type of libertarian. Just as Arthur dismissed him as completely useless, modern mainstream politics ignores and marginalizes most libertarian groups. And they do it to each other, as well. No one is better at denouncing a particular type of libertarianism than another type of libertarian.

rubicon33 11y ago

"Everything libertarian leads to an everyone for themselves hellscape." When you take a black and white perspective like this, it's evident you don't have any intention of understanding your fellow man's position. In this way, you yourself are proving logically inconsistent. You have deemed yourself intelligent enough to judge me as being wrong, in my decision to judge others? So let me get this straight, I am wrong because I believe myself intelligent, rational, thoughtful, and considerate enough, to pass fair judgment on to others. Yet you are not wrong for your rational and thoughtful analysis and subsequent judgment of my belief? That's not just logically inconsistent, it's hypocritical. Regarding your example: Again, things are not as black and white as you would like them to be. Each scenario takes a requires a multitude of factors be considered. Yes, the driver chose to drive in bad weather, which certainly put themselves at risk. I tend to have no problem helping people, who just hurt themselves. But what about the other drivers? Did he put them at risk too? Sure, but those drivers implicitly took the same risk, when they chose to driver in bad weather. There's an additional consideration, that of the acceptability of someone's behavior. Driving is a socially accepted practice, and one that is sometimes a necessary task. I can extend compassion for them, by assuming the needed to engage in this socially accepted practice of driving, despite the risks.