5 ms·

EmacsGolf (2013)

49 points by lelf 11y ago

melling 11y ago
I started an Editor Rosetta Stone of sorts. https://github.com/melling/EditorNotes https://github.com/melling/EditorNotes Emacs and vim have been battling it out for 40 years. There's probably room to improve the typing efficiency of both. Emacs has ergoemacs and god-mode, for example. https://github.com/chrisdone/god-mode https://github.com/chrisdone/god-mode http://ergoemacs.github.io http://ergoemacs.github.io Plus you can use vim key bindings. Is a modal editor better? Should key bindings be built around a more efficient keyboard layout, like Programmer Dvorak, for example? http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/ http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/
- pklausler 11y ago
  > Should key bindings be built around a more efficient keyboard layout, like Programmer Dvorak, for example? That was the idea behind aoeui/asdfg, whose commands are assigned to keys by position.
- ajsalminen 11y ago
  ergoemacs-mode has support for defining the bindings independently of whether you're using Colemak, Dvorak or QWERTY. That's a pretty good idea since the bindings are not really about any specific layout but should be picked based on travel distance etc. While I've found the mode very useful in developing my own setup I've moved on from it because it seems to make too many things randomly stop working for me. I like just picking my own bindings. For me one good goal is to try to get as much as you can of the editing setup system-wide instead of a specific set of keybinds in just that one editor. With a non-modal one this is easier as there are standards like CUA and some other well-established shortcuts that tend to be present in many programs. The default placements just aren't all that great so a tool that can map keybindings to any kind of input can help you make use of them. I use xmonad to do it.
- wingerlang 11y ago
  What if there are multiple ways to do something for a given editor?
omaranto 11y ago
Tim Visher recorded a series of videos of himself playing VimGolf in Emacs [1]. If you want to play there is a great VimGolf client for Emacs [2]. [1] https://vimeo.com/timvisher/videos https://vimeo.com/timvisher/videos [2] https://github.com/igrigorik/vimgolf https://github.com/igrigorik/vimgolf
- timvisher 11y ago
  I don't have many videos _but_ my emacs videos. That said, this is a slightly more specific link: https://vimeo.com/channels/222837 https://vimeo.com/channels/222837
  - omaranto 11y ago
    Thanks, I couldn't quickly figure out how to link to just the Emacs videos. They were fun to watch, thanks for making them!
  - ajsalminen 11y ago
    These are great, I've been looking of examples of skillful Emacs use. Are there any videos of you or someone else putting the knowledge into practice while working on code?
    - omaranto 11y ago
      Have you seen Magnar Sveen's videos? He has a series called Emacs Rocks of short (most are <5 minutes, I think) videos each showcasing one related set of commands, a series called Extending Emacs where he writes a new minor mode for Emacs and a series called Parens of the Dead where he write a webgame in ClojureScript (that last one doesn't star Emacs, but Emacs definitely plays a role). You can find all of them at http://emacsrocks.com/ http://emacsrocks.com/
      - ajsalminen 11y ago
        Thanks, I've taken a look at the Parens of the Dead series earlier and I've definitely been enjoying the Emacs Rocks videos. I'll check out Extending Emacs too. Parens of the Dead is the kind of thing I was looking for more of.
girzel 11y ago
That's where these comparisons always fall down: you're trying to do something in X number of keystrokes in vim, whereas in Emacs you'd write your own function to do whatever it is. How do you compare those? Coincidentally (or not), re: the challenge in the above post, I wrote a command that solves exactly this problem: yank-interleaved. https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/KillingAndYanking#toc3 https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/KillingAndYanking#toc3 How many keystrokes does it take to install and use that function?
- omaranto 11y ago
  I don't think you give Emacs enough credit: sure you can write an Elisp function to do exactly what you need, but you can also usually do it in a few keystrokes using built in commands. Try VimGolf in Emacs sometime, my experience is that it's usually not too hard to get keystroke counts close to those of the vimmers.
binaryblitz 11y ago
So while vim is my terminal editor of choice, I use Sublime for programming. I can do the challenge in 12 keystrokes, 11 if you don't have to delete a trailing line. 1. control+g (Goto line number) 2&3. 11 (line 11) 4. enter 5. cmd+shift+down 6. cmd+x 7. backspace (delete trailing line) 8. cmd+shift+up 9. cmd+shift+l (multiple cursor mode) 10. right arrow (line up cursors) 11. tab 12. cmd+v
- wingerlang 11y ago
  Did it in 9. 1. DOWN hold until line 11 2. SHIFT+DOWN hold until end of file to select 3. CMD+X to cut 4. BACKSPACE to remove space 5. CMD+A to select all 6. CMD+SHIFT+L to multiline 7. RIGHT to line up 8. TAB 9. CMD+V
binaryblitz 11y ago
So while vim is my terminal editor of choice, I use Sublime for programming. I can do the challenge in 12 keystrokes, 11 if you don't have to delete a trailing line. 1. control+g (Goto line number) 2&3. 11 (line 11) 4. enter 5. cmd+shift+down 6. cmd+x 7. backspace (delete trailing line) 8. cmd+shift+up 9. cmd+shift+l (multiple cursor mode) 10. right arrow (line up cursors) 11. tab 12. cmd+v
ajsalminen 11y ago
VimGolf is a fun pastime but in terms of speed I feel focusing only on keystrokes might not give you the full picture. If the solution requires mental effort to do, some other way that is is easy and fast to arrive at in most cases could be faster in terms of time elapsed. Would be fun to have the equivalent of typeracer for VimGolf with a series of tasks that would be similar to what you encounter when programming and a race against time. I wonder if it would be possible to come up with some kind of a "Edits Per Minute" that wouldn't be completely misleading.

EmacsGolf (2013)

49 points by lelf 11y ago

I started an Editor Rosetta Stone of sorts. https://github.com/melling/EditorNotes https://github.com/melling/EditorNotes Emacs and vim have been battling it out for 40 years. There's probably room to improve the typing efficiency of both. Emacs has ergoemacs and god-mode, for example. https://github.com/chrisdone/god-mode https://github.com/chrisdone/god-mode http://ergoemacs.github.io http://ergoemacs.github.io Plus you can use vim key bindings. Is a modal editor better? Should key bindings be built around a more efficient keyboard layout, like Programmer Dvorak, for example? http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/ http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/

pklausler 11y ago
> Should key bindings be built around a more efficient keyboard layout, like Programmer Dvorak, for example? That was the idea behind aoeui/asdfg, whose commands are assigned to keys by position.
ajsalminen 11y ago
ergoemacs-mode has support for defining the bindings independently of whether you're using Colemak, Dvorak or QWERTY. That's a pretty good idea since the bindings are not really about any specific layout but should be picked based on travel distance etc. While I've found the mode very useful in developing my own setup I've moved on from it because it seems to make too many things randomly stop working for me. I like just picking my own bindings. For me one good goal is to try to get as much as you can of the editing setup system-wide instead of a specific set of keybinds in just that one editor. With a non-modal one this is easier as there are standards like CUA and some other well-established shortcuts that tend to be present in many programs. The default placements just aren't all that great so a tool that can map keybindings to any kind of input can help you make use of them. I use xmonad to do it.
wingerlang 11y ago
What if there are multiple ways to do something for a given editor?

omaranto 11y ago

Tim Visher recorded a series of videos of himself playing VimGolf in Emacs [1]. If you want to play there is a great VimGolf client for Emacs [2]. [1] https://vimeo.com/timvisher/videos https://vimeo.com/timvisher/videos [2] https://github.com/igrigorik/vimgolf https://github.com/igrigorik/vimgolf

timvisher 11y ago
I don't have many videos _but_ my emacs videos. That said, this is a slightly more specific link: https://vimeo.com/channels/222837 https://vimeo.com/channels/222837
- omaranto 11y ago
  Thanks, I couldn't quickly figure out how to link to just the Emacs videos. They were fun to watch, thanks for making them!
- ajsalminen 11y ago
  These are great, I've been looking of examples of skillful Emacs use. Are there any videos of you or someone else putting the knowledge into practice while working on code?
  - omaranto 11y ago
    Have you seen Magnar Sveen's videos? He has a series called Emacs Rocks of short (most are <5 minutes, I think) videos each showcasing one related set of commands, a series called Extending Emacs where he writes a new minor mode for Emacs and a series called Parens of the Dead where he write a webgame in ClojureScript (that last one doesn't star Emacs, but Emacs definitely plays a role). You can find all of them at http://emacsrocks.com/ http://emacsrocks.com/
    - ajsalminen 11y ago
      Thanks, I've taken a look at the Parens of the Dead series earlier and I've definitely been enjoying the Emacs Rocks videos. I'll check out Extending Emacs too. Parens of the Dead is the kind of thing I was looking for more of.

girzel 11y ago

That's where these comparisons always fall down: you're trying to do something in X number of keystrokes in vim, whereas in Emacs you'd write your own function to do whatever it is. How do you compare those? Coincidentally (or not), re: the challenge in the above post, I wrote a command that solves exactly this problem: yank-interleaved. https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/KillingAndYanking#toc3 https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/KillingAndYanking#toc3 How many keystrokes does it take to install and use that function?

omaranto 11y ago
I don't think you give Emacs enough credit: sure you can write an Elisp function to do exactly what you need, but you can also usually do it in a few keystrokes using built in commands. Try VimGolf in Emacs sometime, my experience is that it's usually not too hard to get keystroke counts close to those of the vimmers.

binaryblitz 11y ago

So while vim is my terminal editor of choice, I use Sublime for programming. I can do the challenge in 12 keystrokes, 11 if you don't have to delete a trailing line. 1. control+g (Goto line number) 2&3. 11 (line 11) 4. enter 5. cmd+shift+down 6. cmd+x 7. backspace (delete trailing line) 8. cmd+shift+up 9. cmd+shift+l (multiple cursor mode) 10. right arrow (line up cursors) 11. tab 12. cmd+v

wingerlang 11y ago
Did it in 9. 1. DOWN hold until line 11 2. SHIFT+DOWN hold until end of file to select 3. CMD+X to cut 4. BACKSPACE to remove space 5. CMD+A to select all 6. CMD+SHIFT+L to multiline 7. RIGHT to line up 8. TAB 9. CMD+V

binaryblitz 11y ago

ajsalminen 11y ago

VimGolf is a fun pastime but in terms of speed I feel focusing only on keystrokes might not give you the full picture. If the solution requires mental effort to do, some other way that is is easy and fast to arrive at in most cases could be faster in terms of time elapsed. Would be fun to have the equivalent of typeracer for VimGolf with a series of tasks that would be similar to what you encounter when programming and a race against time. I wonder if it would be possible to come up with some kind of a "Edits Per Minute" that wouldn't be completely misleading.