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Who in their right minds would want China to be the global hegemony when they censor free speech, treat people like they are disposable (Falun Gong body organ h

Who in their right minds would want China to be the global hegemony when they censor free speech, treat people like they are disposable (Falun Gong body organ harvesting by President Zemin), impose Han Chinese ethnocentric ideologies as superior to the world as did Nazi Germany believed their blood made them pure? What country in their right mind that enjoys the security and economic prosperity and trade with other democracies, uproot all of these perks in favor of China? Who thinks like this besides delusional Chinese ultra nationalists and apologists? United States is not perfect or all good either but fuck me if I'm going to let China become the world hegemony and bully every country like they do in the South China sea? The world needs United States more than it needs the world. edit: for those saying falun gong organ harvesting is a conspiracy. Please refer to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go... Falun Gong is a Chinese qigong discipline involving meditation and a moral philosophy rooted in Buddhist tradition. The practice rose to popularity in the 1990s in China, and by 1998, Chinese government sources estimated that as many as 70 million people had taken up the practice.[23][24] Perceiving that Falun Gong was a potential threat to the Party’s authority and ideology, Communist Party leader Jiang Zemin initiated a nationwide campaign to eradicate the group in July 1999. [25]

dualogy 11y ago
> Who in their right minds would want China to be the global hegemony Who in their right minds would want any one country to be the global hegemony.. > The world needs United States more than it needs the world. Sure, "the world" needs a 4-decades-long "net-debtor+net-importer" very very badly..
- dsmithatx 11y ago
  > Sure, "the world" needs a 4-decades-long "net-debtor+net-importer" very very badly.. I find it sad that this is your summary of the United States contributions to the rest of the world. I'm fairly sure there must be a few things you are skipping over here, good and bad.
  - moreorless 11y ago
    I did not read his comment as such. I read it more as "every country has its warts."
rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
We in the West have the privilege of using our culture of free expression and open communication to create marvels like pizza and burgers, and then oversell these marvels to the Chinese as brands that can never be 100% replicated, like Pizza Hut and McDonald's. China will never be cool. Powerful, but not sexy. Keep being original and interesting, and you will be a part of the winning team.
- MrMullen 11y ago
  As the saying goes; "China has Pandas, China has kung-foo, but America invented Kung-foo Panda. That would never happen in China."
  - rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
    Bingo. Being cool means being able to say "fuck 'the man'" China's history is to be "the man" at any cost. The Chinese government will never allow homegrown "cool" for fear it undermines their authority or create culture by decree.
- duncan_bayne 11y ago
  Paul Graham gave the example of members of the Manhattan Project having lock-picking and safe-cracking as hobbies; that almost certainly wouldn't have been a thing on the NAZI side, and nicely illustrates the difference between the two.
analyst74 11y ago
> Who in their right minds would want China to be the global hegemony when they censor free speech, treat people like they are disposable (Falun Gong body organ harvesting by President Zemin), impose Han Chinese ethnocentric ideologies as superior to the world as did Nazi Germany believed their blood made them pure? I can't believe people actually think this way... organ harvesting by the president?? Han Chinese ethnocentric ideologies??
- nitrogen 11y ago
  I'm not sure that simply expressing astonishment will change anyone's mind. Are these well-known ideas or something completely new? Can you refute them directly or explain where they come from to someone not familiar with Chinese history and current conspiracy theories?
  - analyst74 11y ago
    One does not need familiarity with Chinese history or conspiracy theories to put those claims into the nonsense bin. But in case it's not as obvious as I see it, here are my assumptions: - president of China is a public figure - he is probably not crazy - most Chinese people are not crazy - not-crazy people think organ harvesting is really bad Based on those assumptions (feel free to prove me wrong), he is unlikely to have ordered organ harvesting, and even if he did, it's unlikely he can cover it up. As to "Han Chinese ethnocentric ideologies", I have never heard of it. But if I were to take a guess, he might be referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinocentrism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinocentrism, and it has not been a thing for at least several hundred years.
    - Jtsummers 11y ago
      Organ harvesting from prisoners is apparently legal in China (per the Wikipedia article, haven't followed through all the links yet). So apparently some not-crazy people think it's not really bad or crazy people are running the show. Let's assume not-crazy. They have a source of organs, people they intend to execute, and they apparently make use of this. There's a lack (or circa 2006 was) of a detailed registry showing the source of transplant organs. There's some evidence (but not conclusive) that some of those organs were from Falun Gong members. So China is harvesting organs from prisoners. They have not maintained an accountable record of which prisoners were used that could be offered as verification. Torture and coercion of Falun Gong prisoners does happen. In an environment of poor accountability and oversight with a willingness for brutality, the potential abuse cannot be immediately discarded. If you think I'm just bashing China, see the US and its various torture abuses over the past 15 (in particular) years. Abu Ghraib is not something that most people would have expected from the US Army, but it happened. Bush was a public figure. Bush was probably not crazy. Most US people are not crazy. Not-crazy people think that dehumanizing and torture of prisoners is really bad. But it happened. This is a different scale (thousands, not hundreds) and different issue (killing and harvesting, not torture) but your assumptions are insufficient to discard it out of hand. They do, however, provide a solid basis for skepticism. But had the Chinese officials and agencies involved done their due diligence they should have had records demonstrating the source of organs. If for no other reason than the medical knowledge for recipients. A closed examination or audit of those records would have sufficed to put this case to rest (for the vast majority of people).
Spooky23 11y ago
IMO, people are starting to flip against globalization more than in the past, and in places like India as well. In the US, the rise of Trump & Bernie are a good example of people having enough with the mainstream political schtick. That threatens China's role as factory to the world, and the cracks that are developing drives more repressive behavior.
- 0xffff2 11y ago
  What does "flip against globalization" actually mean? Unless people are suddenly preferring domestically produced goods over imports in statistically significant numbers, I don't see globalization slowing down any time soon.
  - Spooky23 11y ago
    India: http://m.ndtv.com/india-news/fdi-is-first-develop-india-pm-modi-tells-indian-diaspora-in-singapore-1247122 http://m.ndtv.com/india-news/fdi-is-first-develop-india-pm-m... US: https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/us-china-trade-reform https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/us-china-trade-reform Europe: http://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/?fa=62990 http://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/?fa=62990
    - 0xffff2 11y ago
      Did you really just link a campaign position from Donald Trump of all people as evidence against globalization? Do you have any evidence of an actual shift away from globalization? Trump can talk himself to death, but that doesn't mean that we are actually doing anything to reduce our reliance on China or any other country.
      - Spooky23 11y ago
        Guess what, those flyover people whose jobs have been rendered redundant by outsourcing to China and automation using cheap imported technology vote. Bernie Sanders has a different variation on a similar message. Voters love it.
MichaelGG 11y ago
Falun Gong is a superstitious group that promotes the belief in magical powers. Knowing that, China's actions make far more sense (if still unfair). A large group that's irrational to the point of killing people via belief in magic is very possibly a threat.
- moreorless 11y ago
  They are nothing more than con-artists. They prey on the desperate and the uneducated.

dualogy 11y ago

> Who in their right minds would want China to be the global hegemony Who in their right minds would want any one country to be the global hegemony.. > The world needs United States more than it needs the world. Sure, "the world" needs a 4-decades-long "net-debtor+net-importer" very very badly..

dsmithatx 11y ago
> Sure, "the world" needs a 4-decades-long "net-debtor+net-importer" very very badly.. I find it sad that this is your summary of the United States contributions to the rest of the world. I'm fairly sure there must be a few things you are skipping over here, good and bad.
- moreorless 11y ago
  I did not read his comment as such. I read it more as "every country has its warts."

rm_-rf_slash 11y ago

We in the West have the privilege of using our culture of free expression and open communication to create marvels like pizza and burgers, and then oversell these marvels to the Chinese as brands that can never be 100% replicated, like Pizza Hut and McDonald's. China will never be cool. Powerful, but not sexy. Keep being original and interesting, and you will be a part of the winning team.

MrMullen 11y ago
As the saying goes; "China has Pandas, China has kung-foo, but America invented Kung-foo Panda. That would never happen in China."
- rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
  Bingo. Being cool means being able to say "fuck 'the man'" China's history is to be "the man" at any cost. The Chinese government will never allow homegrown "cool" for fear it undermines their authority or create culture by decree.
duncan_bayne 11y ago
Paul Graham gave the example of members of the Manhattan Project having lock-picking and safe-cracking as hobbies; that almost certainly wouldn't have been a thing on the NAZI side, and nicely illustrates the difference between the two.

analyst74 11y ago

> Who in their right minds would want China to be the global hegemony when they censor free speech, treat people like they are disposable (Falun Gong body organ harvesting by President Zemin), impose Han Chinese ethnocentric ideologies as superior to the world as did Nazi Germany believed their blood made them pure? I can't believe people actually think this way... organ harvesting by the president?? Han Chinese ethnocentric ideologies??

nitrogen 11y ago
I'm not sure that simply expressing astonishment will change anyone's mind. Are these well-known ideas or something completely new? Can you refute them directly or explain where they come from to someone not familiar with Chinese history and current conspiracy theories?
- analyst74 11y ago
  One does not need familiarity with Chinese history or conspiracy theories to put those claims into the nonsense bin. But in case it's not as obvious as I see it, here are my assumptions: - president of China is a public figure - he is probably not crazy - most Chinese people are not crazy - not-crazy people think organ harvesting is really bad Based on those assumptions (feel free to prove me wrong), he is unlikely to have ordered organ harvesting, and even if he did, it's unlikely he can cover it up. As to "Han Chinese ethnocentric ideologies", I have never heard of it. But if I were to take a guess, he might be referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinocentrism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinocentrism, and it has not been a thing for at least several hundred years.
  - Jtsummers 11y ago
    Organ harvesting from prisoners is apparently legal in China (per the Wikipedia article, haven't followed through all the links yet). So apparently some not-crazy people think it's not really bad or crazy people are running the show. Let's assume not-crazy. They have a source of organs, people they intend to execute, and they apparently make use of this. There's a lack (or circa 2006 was) of a detailed registry showing the source of transplant organs. There's some evidence (but not conclusive) that some of those organs were from Falun Gong members. So China is harvesting organs from prisoners. They have not maintained an accountable record of which prisoners were used that could be offered as verification. Torture and coercion of Falun Gong prisoners does happen. In an environment of poor accountability and oversight with a willingness for brutality, the potential abuse cannot be immediately discarded. If you think I'm just bashing China, see the US and its various torture abuses over the past 15 (in particular) years. Abu Ghraib is not something that most people would have expected from the US Army, but it happened. Bush was a public figure. Bush was probably not crazy. Most US people are not crazy. Not-crazy people think that dehumanizing and torture of prisoners is really bad. But it happened. This is a different scale (thousands, not hundreds) and different issue (killing and harvesting, not torture) but your assumptions are insufficient to discard it out of hand. They do, however, provide a solid basis for skepticism. But had the Chinese officials and agencies involved done their due diligence they should have had records demonstrating the source of organs. If for no other reason than the medical knowledge for recipients. A closed examination or audit of those records would have sufficed to put this case to rest (for the vast majority of people).

Spooky23 11y ago

IMO, people are starting to flip against globalization more than in the past, and in places like India as well. In the US, the rise of Trump & Bernie are a good example of people having enough with the mainstream political schtick. That threatens China's role as factory to the world, and the cracks that are developing drives more repressive behavior.

0xffff2 11y ago
What does "flip against globalization" actually mean? Unless people are suddenly preferring domestically produced goods over imports in statistically significant numbers, I don't see globalization slowing down any time soon.
- Spooky23 11y ago
  India: http://m.ndtv.com/india-news/fdi-is-first-develop-india-pm-modi-tells-indian-diaspora-in-singapore-1247122 http://m.ndtv.com/india-news/fdi-is-first-develop-india-pm-m... US: https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/us-china-trade-reform https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/us-china-trade-reform Europe: http://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/?fa=62990 http://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/?fa=62990
  - 0xffff2 11y ago
    Did you really just link a campaign position from Donald Trump of all people as evidence against globalization? Do you have any evidence of an actual shift away from globalization? Trump can talk himself to death, but that doesn't mean that we are actually doing anything to reduce our reliance on China or any other country.
    - Spooky23 11y ago
      Guess what, those flyover people whose jobs have been rendered redundant by outsourcing to China and automation using cheap imported technology vote. Bernie Sanders has a different variation on a similar message. Voters love it.

MichaelGG 11y ago

Falun Gong is a superstitious group that promotes the belief in magical powers. Knowing that, China's actions make far more sense (if still unfair). A large group that's irrational to the point of killing people via belief in magic is very possibly a threat.

moreorless 11y ago
They are nothing more than con-artists. They prey on the desperate and the uneducated.