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A top smartphone chess program can beat pretty much all but the best few players in the world. Do you think it's fair to pit a 150 gram device against a 70 kg h

by 21 11y ago

A top smartphone chess program can beat pretty much all but the best few players in the world. Do you think it's fair to pit a 150 gram device against a 70 kg human?

chopin 11y ago
Although a fairer comparison would be against 1 kg of brain. Comparing against a human would need to include all the infrastructure for the device such as energy production or the manufacturing equipment required. But nevertheless, fitting so much computing power in such a small device is a great achievement.
- ivanca 11y ago
  Not really, the brain to operate also needs all the other systems. Just as a CPU needs all the other parts to function. And including the manufacturing equipment is just as false, in the sense that you would have to include his mother (as biological manufacturing)
  - lmm 11y ago
    The human can run off resources that are available "in the wild", self-repair, and self-replicate at better than 1:1 (that is, a group of n humans produce >n offspring), whereas the smartphone needs a huge amount of infrastructure to repair it and produce new ones. I don't think any mass comparison is really meaningful, mind, but it's not that simple.
    - cbd1984 11y ago
      Advanced chess players require a society which produces enough surplus to afford enough leisure to allow someone to not only produce a brain not damaged by starvation, but to allow them to use that brain to learn chess at a high level. It took a very long time for humans to get to that level, even though chess is a fairly old game. My point is, humans "in the wild" likely didn't have any equivalent to chess, because they didn't have sufficient leisure time. Chess is a product of an environment that's just as "artificial" as the one which produced cell phones.
      - lmm 11y ago
        Games, including complex ones, go back a long way in human history. I've seen various claims about how much free time people have in primitive societies and I don't know enough to really know which are correct. The modern style of chess play relies on having openings books and computer assistance, but that's less true of go, which AIUI is learned largely through practice and a cultivation of taste and instinct (and the pieces can just be a set of stones and a grid scratched in the dirt).
        Vraxx 11y ago
        Games may have existed, but the relative skill level of the players was likely a lot lower when people weren't spending as much time mastering the game, spreading and consuming strategy knowledge, and constantly holding events to compete and refine the best players. I think the entire analogy is stretched a little thin of the players requiring all of this, but I also think the original attack on the Go AI based on it's mass is off base as well.
        cuckcuckspruce 11y ago
        But you have to admit that it's easier to learn fuseki when you don't have to worry about being eaten by a tiger.
      - conceit 11y ago
        remember that chess is a war game and that war is most often fought over resources and territory, so they had their "chess" alright.
        eternalban 11y ago
        The story of Chess, according to Iranian mythological sources (recounted in Shahnameh) is that it was presented to the Iranian Court by the emissaries of the Indian Court, as a 'semantic puzzle' invented by Indian sages. (These games, it should be noted, were pedagogical in nature and used as symbolic means of training monarchs by the intellectual elites.) The response of the Iranian sages was the invention of Backgammon, to highlight the role of Providence in human affairs. [p.s. not all Iranians are willing to cede Chess to the sister civilization of India: http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Sport/chess.htm http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Sport/chess.htm] ;)
    - ivanca 11y ago
      The self-repair and self-replicate come at a very hard cost, in the sense that it requires food, water and oxygen, while machines only need electricity. And the replication is actually incomplete in the sense that it starts in a very small state where it needs the three resources to actually become a complete human (adult) and dies if not taken care by a third-party in such early state (parents). Plus, not far away in the future we will be able to connect an smartphone to a 3D circuit printer and print a new one, to achieve 'self-replication'
chris_b_ 11y ago
A chess program on your smartphone will obliterate even the world champion - http://en.chessbase.com/post/komodo-8-the-smartphone-vs-desktop-challenge http://en.chessbase.com/post/komodo-8-the-smartphone-vs-desk...

by 21 11y ago

A top smartphone chess program can beat pretty much all but the best few players in the world. Do you think it's fair to pit a 150 gram device against a 70 kg human?

chopin 11y ago

Although a fairer comparison would be against 1 kg of brain. Comparing against a human would need to include all the infrastructure for the device such as energy production or the manufacturing equipment required. But nevertheless, fitting so much computing power in such a small device is a great achievement.

ivanca 11y ago
Not really, the brain to operate also needs all the other systems. Just as a CPU needs all the other parts to function. And including the manufacturing equipment is just as false, in the sense that you would have to include his mother (as biological manufacturing)
- lmm 11y ago
  The human can run off resources that are available "in the wild", self-repair, and self-replicate at better than 1:1 (that is, a group of n humans produce >n offspring), whereas the smartphone needs a huge amount of infrastructure to repair it and produce new ones. I don't think any mass comparison is really meaningful, mind, but it's not that simple.
  - cbd1984 11y ago
    Advanced chess players require a society which produces enough surplus to afford enough leisure to allow someone to not only produce a brain not damaged by starvation, but to allow them to use that brain to learn chess at a high level. It took a very long time for humans to get to that level, even though chess is a fairly old game. My point is, humans "in the wild" likely didn't have any equivalent to chess, because they didn't have sufficient leisure time. Chess is a product of an environment that's just as "artificial" as the one which produced cell phones.
    - lmm 11y ago
      Games, including complex ones, go back a long way in human history. I've seen various claims about how much free time people have in primitive societies and I don't know enough to really know which are correct. The modern style of chess play relies on having openings books and computer assistance, but that's less true of go, which AIUI is learned largely through practice and a cultivation of taste and instinct (and the pieces can just be a set of stones and a grid scratched in the dirt).
      - Vraxx 11y ago
        Games may have existed, but the relative skill level of the players was likely a lot lower when people weren't spending as much time mastering the game, spreading and consuming strategy knowledge, and constantly holding events to compete and refine the best players. I think the entire analogy is stretched a little thin of the players requiring all of this, but I also think the original attack on the Go AI based on it's mass is off base as well.
      - cuckcuckspruce 11y ago
        But you have to admit that it's easier to learn fuseki when you don't have to worry about being eaten by a tiger.
    - conceit 11y ago
      remember that chess is a war game and that war is most often fought over resources and territory, so they had their "chess" alright.
      - eternalban 11y ago
        The story of Chess, according to Iranian mythological sources (recounted in Shahnameh) is that it was presented to the Iranian Court by the emissaries of the Indian Court, as a 'semantic puzzle' invented by Indian sages. (These games, it should be noted, were pedagogical in nature and used as symbolic means of training monarchs by the intellectual elites.) The response of the Iranian sages was the invention of Backgammon, to highlight the role of Providence in human affairs. [p.s. not all Iranians are willing to cede Chess to the sister civilization of India: http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Sport/chess.htm http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Sport/chess.htm] ;)
  - ivanca 11y ago
    The self-repair and self-replicate come at a very hard cost, in the sense that it requires food, water and oxygen, while machines only need electricity. And the replication is actually incomplete in the sense that it starts in a very small state where it needs the three resources to actually become a complete human (adult) and dies if not taken care by a third-party in such early state (parents). Plus, not far away in the future we will be able to connect an smartphone to a 3D circuit printer and print a new one, to achieve 'self-replication'

chris_b_ 11y ago

A chess program on your smartphone will obliterate even the world champion - http://en.chessbase.com/post/komodo-8-the-smartphone-vs-desktop-challenge http://en.chessbase.com/post/komodo-8-the-smartphone-vs-desk...