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This is my generation's Gary Kasparov vs. Deep Blue. In many ways, it is more significant. Several top commentators were saying how AlphaGo has improved notice

This is my generation's Gary Kasparov vs. Deep Blue. In many ways, it is more significant. Several top commentators were saying how AlphaGo has improved noticeably since October. AlphaGo's victory tonight marks the moment that go is no longer a human dominated contest. It was a very exciting game, incredible level of play. I really enjoyed watching it live with the expert commentary. I recommend the AGA youtube channel for those who know how to play. They had a 9p commenting at a higher level than the deepmind channel (which seemed geared towards those who aren't as familiar).

21 11y ago
I know absolutely nothing about Go, and I enjoyed the deepmind channel and found the commenting very good. I was actually thinking about playing a game with another total noob, just for fun, since the rules can be explained in 1 minute (unlike chess).
- yiyus 11y ago
  I totally recommend it. Learning Go is a beautiful experience. It is indeed very interesting to play against another new player just to see what you come up with, then do some reading and solve some basic problems (it may even be a good idea to have a look at the easier problems before playing your first game), play more games, read more advanced books, join KGS... It is a very nice rabbit hole to fall into.
- blue1 11y ago
  The rules can be explained in 1 minute, but the game takes some time to just start making sense. I suggest starting on a 9x9 or 13x13 board. The regular 19x19 has too much strategic depth and noobs feel lost on it.
  - exDM69 11y ago
    Many Go players suggest starting with Atari Go (aka Capture Go). It has the same rules as Go, but the starting position is predetermined and the winner is the player to capture the first stone. You only need to play a few rounds of Atari Go, say 30 minutes to an hour to get a grasp of the capturing rules and then you can move to a 9x9 or 13x13. I'd go straight for the 13x13 because it's not that much bigger but it has much more depth into it without being overwhelming. And many Go boards have 19x19 on the other side and 13x13 on the other. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_Go https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_Go
    - kqr 11y ago
      The drawback with Capture Go is that it emphasises the capturing part perhaps a bit too much. I prefer introducing players to a variant with the same rules as capture go, except the winning condition is "having the most pieces on the board". This is essentially the same thing as regular go, but without all the fuffing about with learning scoring and such. When played on a small enough board, the games take about as long time as capture go games.
      - aurelianito 11y ago
        What do you do if they enter in ko?
        kqr 11y ago
        Depending on which level you want to put the game at, you can either say that ko = draw or quickly explain how something like PSK works.
      - aurelianito 11y ago
        What do you do if they enter in ko?
      - aurelianito 11y ago
        What do you do if they enter in ko?
      - aurelianito 11y ago
        What do you do if they enter in ko?
      - exDM69 11y ago
        > The drawback with Capture Go is that it emphasises the capturing part perhaps a bit too much. I definitely agree. Just a few games (ie. just a few minutes) of Atari Go every now and then should be enough to teach that and then move on the the real thing. Your game variant sounds interesting, btw!
- SeanDav 11y ago
  Chess rules can be explained in 1 minute - you just have to talk really, really fast.
  - goldenkey 11y ago
    I like The Wire's explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0mxz2-AQ64 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0mxz2-AQ64
- Florin_Andrei 11y ago
  > I was actually thinking about playing a game with another total noob, just for fun, since the rules can be explained in 1 minute (unlike chess). That's actually the recommended way to get started. Learn the rules, and then play a bunch of games with another beginner.
awwducks 11y ago
Yep, terrific commentary by Myungwan Kim 9p on the AGA channel. For the folks who aren't as familiar with the game, how did you find the commentary (for any channel)? What would you be interested in hearing for events like these?
- kolinko 11y ago
  As a person who knew only the basic rules beforehand, I wouldn't imagine it any better. Any more complicated and I'd get lost. I'd love to see one day a live commentary, with an extra window showing what computer is thinking at the moment.
  - sounds 11y ago
    Having worked on some code very similar to this, showing the computer's best moves would be quite artificial. Here's some thoughts as to why that is: 1. The computer can discard all its current best ideas and flip through new ones so fast, it would be a flickering blur to humans. 2. Even if we put a speed limit on it, the move being considered is itself the result of considering a lot of slight variations. 3. The ability to _articulate_ in a human language what makes the move nice is itself a "hard problem" closely related to natural language processing. 4. Even just having some color codes or symbols and grouping related ideas has some serious problems: now the visualization is pretty technical to begin with, the computer is still able to memorize and compare moves at an unbelievable rate, and it's still fundamentally not the same as the method Go masters use to find a solution.
    - laxatives 11y ago
      Regarding the first one, I don't think this would be a serious issue. It shouldn't show what move its considering, just the current best option. It would probably converge on a good move within the first second. Running the free, quick analysis from chess.com on my Iphone has a great visualization that rapidly updates the computer's scoring of the current position and shows what it thinks is the best move, as well as pointing out any previous moves it thinks are mistakes/blunders.
    - 11y ago
karmakaze 11y ago
The game was bound to be exciting due to the matchup. AlphaGo's moves were for the most part not exciting for much of the match, IMO. It seemed content to follow the outline that was unfolding rather than setting an agenda, and executing really well towards the end. I can't wait to see how it plays as black and moving first. It either seems like the earlier match vs Euro 3p didn't show AlphaGo's full strength, or it has improved much in the interim. Other takes?

21 11y ago

I know absolutely nothing about Go, and I enjoyed the deepmind channel and found the commenting very good. I was actually thinking about playing a game with another total noob, just for fun, since the rules can be explained in 1 minute (unlike chess).

yiyus 11y ago
I totally recommend it. Learning Go is a beautiful experience. It is indeed very interesting to play against another new player just to see what you come up with, then do some reading and solve some basic problems (it may even be a good idea to have a look at the easier problems before playing your first game), play more games, read more advanced books, join KGS... It is a very nice rabbit hole to fall into.
blue1 11y ago
The rules can be explained in 1 minute, but the game takes some time to just start making sense. I suggest starting on a 9x9 or 13x13 board. The regular 19x19 has too much strategic depth and noobs feel lost on it.
- exDM69 11y ago
  Many Go players suggest starting with Atari Go (aka Capture Go). It has the same rules as Go, but the starting position is predetermined and the winner is the player to capture the first stone. You only need to play a few rounds of Atari Go, say 30 minutes to an hour to get a grasp of the capturing rules and then you can move to a 9x9 or 13x13. I'd go straight for the 13x13 because it's not that much bigger but it has much more depth into it without being overwhelming. And many Go boards have 19x19 on the other side and 13x13 on the other. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_Go https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_Go
  - kqr 11y ago
    The drawback with Capture Go is that it emphasises the capturing part perhaps a bit too much. I prefer introducing players to a variant with the same rules as capture go, except the winning condition is "having the most pieces on the board". This is essentially the same thing as regular go, but without all the fuffing about with learning scoring and such. When played on a small enough board, the games take about as long time as capture go games.
    - aurelianito 11y ago
      What do you do if they enter in ko?
      - kqr 11y ago
        Depending on which level you want to put the game at, you can either say that ko = draw or quickly explain how something like PSK works.
    - aurelianito 11y ago
      What do you do if they enter in ko?
    - aurelianito 11y ago
      What do you do if they enter in ko?
    - aurelianito 11y ago
      What do you do if they enter in ko?
    - exDM69 11y ago
      > The drawback with Capture Go is that it emphasises the capturing part perhaps a bit too much. I definitely agree. Just a few games (ie. just a few minutes) of Atari Go every now and then should be enough to teach that and then move on the the real thing. Your game variant sounds interesting, btw!
SeanDav 11y ago
Chess rules can be explained in 1 minute - you just have to talk really, really fast.
- goldenkey 11y ago
  I like The Wire's explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0mxz2-AQ64 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0mxz2-AQ64
Florin_Andrei 11y ago
> I was actually thinking about playing a game with another total noob, just for fun, since the rules can be explained in 1 minute (unlike chess). That's actually the recommended way to get started. Learn the rules, and then play a bunch of games with another beginner.

awwducks 11y ago

Yep, terrific commentary by Myungwan Kim 9p on the AGA channel. For the folks who aren't as familiar with the game, how did you find the commentary (for any channel)? What would you be interested in hearing for events like these?

kolinko 11y ago
As a person who knew only the basic rules beforehand, I wouldn't imagine it any better. Any more complicated and I'd get lost. I'd love to see one day a live commentary, with an extra window showing what computer is thinking at the moment.
- sounds 11y ago
  Having worked on some code very similar to this, showing the computer's best moves would be quite artificial. Here's some thoughts as to why that is: 1. The computer can discard all its current best ideas and flip through new ones so fast, it would be a flickering blur to humans. 2. Even if we put a speed limit on it, the move being considered is itself the result of considering a lot of slight variations. 3. The ability to _articulate_ in a human language what makes the move nice is itself a "hard problem" closely related to natural language processing. 4. Even just having some color codes or symbols and grouping related ideas has some serious problems: now the visualization is pretty technical to begin with, the computer is still able to memorize and compare moves at an unbelievable rate, and it's still fundamentally not the same as the method Go masters use to find a solution.
  - laxatives 11y ago
    Regarding the first one, I don't think this would be a serious issue. It shouldn't show what move its considering, just the current best option. It would probably converge on a good move within the first second. Running the free, quick analysis from chess.com on my Iphone has a great visualization that rapidly updates the computer's scoring of the current position and shows what it thinks is the best move, as well as pointing out any previous moves it thinks are mistakes/blunders.
  - 11y ago

karmakaze 11y ago

The game was bound to be exciting due to the matchup. AlphaGo's moves were for the most part not exciting for much of the match, IMO. It seemed content to follow the outline that was unfolding rather than setting an agenda, and executing really well towards the end. I can't wait to see how it plays as black and moving first. It either seems like the earlier match vs Euro 3p didn't show AlphaGo's full strength, or it has improved much in the interim. Other takes?