6 ms·

You know how I know when to pull my money out from the stock market? When your neighbor tells you to invest money in the stock market. The idea is that there's

You know how I know when to pull my money out from the stock market? When your neighbor tells you to invest money in the stock market. The idea is that there's a big lag between when the smart money have left and when ordinary people start crowding in. Same with China. Now I'm hearing from friends somehow China is the place to be that gravity is Falun Gong and doesn't exist and China will overtake United States in 10 years, and other extreme optimism that reminds me a lot about past bubbles. But I'm interested to know if you have any source on SaaS in China. I am optimistic about China in the long run but not with the current communist government. Only when China is unrestricted from free trade of knowledge, information and expression, only when such basic human rights guaranteed in other developed Western nations are present, can China truly become something worthy to be taken seriously. Who want's to live in a China even Chinese people don't like or want to stay in? If you haven't noticed all the rich chinese people are getting the fuck out of China, people are so desperate that they are willing to embezzle, corrupt, steal, kill, fuck over anything or anyone. You really expect SV companies to uproot and start a new life in China? Are China thumpers really this naive?

dragonbonheur 11y ago
You'd better get used to that Chinese government, it's here to stay. Besides, what do you want? For the Communist party to devolve into US congress? And about those supposed Chinese people who don't want to stay - just like some minority of the US population doesn't want to pay their fair share of taxes or contribute positively to their local society and have thus mastered the shell company and tax haven game, there exists an equivalent minority of the Chinese population who don't want to do their part either and who are well-off enough to be noticed by foreign media when they move in expensive neighborhoods in western countries. The Chinese population being higher, that percentage of rich people fleeing will also be higher. And about China being taken seriously - are you really that naïve NOT to take them seriously? Do you not take the formidable number of Chinese people that have been lifted off abject poverty seriously? Do you not take the millions of kilometers of railroad that have been built both within and outside China by Chinese companies and people seriously? Do you not take the infrastructure that has been built, no questions asked, in Africa seriously while western nations have only taken from Africa while giving nothing in return except conflict and weapons? Do you not take seriously the information that a Chinese company, COSCO, recently became the operator of Greece's ports? Do you not take seriously that Chinese entrepreneurs, often being from a modest background themselves, left their country for Sub-Saharian Africa and Egypt and even Ethiopia and have become of the main providers of employment and growth and even HOPE-you-can-believe-in in those countries? I'm not a "China thumper", I'm not Chinese or even Asian - I just see the world as it is. I've seen the corruption in US government and I know about the pentagon's revolving door. It's also obvious that the British and to a somewhat lesser extent the French governments are sellouts of the oligarchs. If you want to argue about corruption in the Chinese government know first that their officials and their families are shown what life is like in prison when they take office so that they know the consequences of temptation. Maybe next you'd want to argue that China allegedly "stole" some islands in the South China Sea and is now threatening everyone, allegedly. Well, I'd argue that in 2011 an agreement was reached among SOVEREIGN (very important here and thus in caps) ASEAN nations and the Philippines decided to call in the oh-so-righteous United States to get things moving in their favor, thus the current clusterfuck. And besides the US and Britain already set the precedent by stealing the Chagos Archipelago and within it, Diego Garcia. Also note that they also unceremoniously removed all the inhabitants of these islands who were only allowed to carry ONE SINGLE BRIEFCASE worth of their possessions when they were put in the bottom of boats where quite a few got ill and even died. Then the US and Britain went on and declared the Chagos a marine protected area to obliterate any possibility that the Chagossians could return to their land. A marine protected area where they could safely keep nuclear weapons... What China is doing in the South China Sea, building islands and infrastructure to fight against piracy and more important, ensure safe harbor for ships in a world that will be increasingly affected by climate change, is patty cakes in comparison to what western nations have done. I believe the world needs balance - therefore it can't all be the oh-so-righteous Western system of "governance". A balance of power, a balance of opinions, a balance of superpowers. And having seen how corrupt and destructive Western governments have been and can be, my opinion -and mine only - is that China represent a good counterpoint to that corruption and destruction. China represents progress and hope in the long run. It's more likely that universal basic income and a post-scarcity society will come,and will be sustained, from Chinese culture and system of government than anywhere else. Why? Because it's the country where even farmers are crazy enough to build helicopters, submarines and robots for a hobby and in this world, the ones who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do.
- idra 11y ago
  Typical "50 cent troll" rhetoric. "The US and Britain have done bad things, so China can do them too". In fact, most of the points you've made are untrue and reek of CCP propaganda. >Do you not take the formidable number of Chinese people that have been lifted off abject poverty seriously? After China's own government has driven the entire country into famine and poverty, and destroyed any lingering of culture the country had. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution > Do you not take the millions of kilometers of railroad that have been built both within and outside China by Chinese companies and people seriously? Built quickly and shoddily with no safety standards. The major aim of building the high-speed rail network was to boost the GDP. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/18/world/asia/18rail.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/18/world/asia/18rail.html https://www.hongkongfp.com/2015/08/07/70-of-chinese-train-components-fail-safety-standards-chinas-railway-operator-reveals/ https://www.hongkongfp.com/2015/08/07/70-of-chinese-train-co... > Do you not take the infrastructure that has been built, no questions asked, in Africa seriously while western nations have only taken from Africa while giving nothing in return except conflict and weapons? > Do you not take seriously that Chinese entrepreneurs, often being from a modest background themselves, left their country for Sub-Saharian Africa and Egypt and even Ethiopia and have become of the main providers of employment and growth and even HOPE-you-can-believe-in in those countries? China has been routinely called "the new colonialists" for their actions in Africa. http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/china-in-africa-the-new-imperialists http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/china-in-africa-the-... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-echochambers-26328763 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-echochambers-26328763 >Do you not take seriously the information that a Chinese company, COSCO, recently became the operator of Greece's ports? Sole bid. No one else wanted it. http://www.wsj.com/articles/china-cosco-makes-sole-bid-for-greek-port-of-piraeus-1452619800 http://www.wsj.com/articles/china-cosco-makes-sole-bid-for-g... I'm not even going to start on your ridiculous claim about China "building islands and infrastructure to fight against piracy and more important, ensure safe harbor for ships in a world that will be increasingly affected by climate change" in the South China Sea, which is so bizarre that it needs no refutal. So, no, I don't take whatever you say seriously. In fact, I think you are a shill paid by the Chinese government to post this.
bottled_poe 11y ago
> Who want's to live in a China even Chinese people don't like or want to stay in It seem's that you are naive. Rich people are leaving because the standard of living is higher at the moment, but this will change. China is still developing, having spent the last 50 years lifting hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. Meanwhile, poverty in the US has increased to 14%. China will overtake the US as the dominant global superpower this century.
- 50CNT 11y ago
  There's also the fact that proper communist china still lingers in the collective consciousness like IE6 does in webdesign. There used to be the communist party doctrine that individuals with possible grudges against the party within 3 generations would not be granted party membership. Some people that have money now would still count for this rule, which is another reason they might want some cash abroad.
- idra 11y ago
  Well, the "50 years" claim is simply not true, the whole lifting out of poverty thing started with the opening up and the influx of foreign investment to use cheap Chinese labour after Deng Xiaoping took power in 1978. Before that, the Chinese leadership under Mao were doing their best to drive all of China into poverty and famine. Have you ever been to China? I've lived in China over for 10 years until 2011, and it has always baffled me how so many foreigners were saying that China will be the economic superpower of the 21st century, and all I saw was a nation of poorly educated people with a cult of money, lack of any kind of moral compass and rampant corruption deeply embedded into the fabric of society. To be fair, it also had more or less developed infrastructure and lots of cheap labor that has made manufacturing in China profitable for international companies. I was trying to be positive and kept repeating the "in China it's different, they have a special Chinese way" mantra. Well, now the Chinese economy has now been exposed as the pyramid scheme it has always been and there is no light at the end of the tunnel. I see your claim that "the standard of living will change" as absolutely laughable, as any people who are capable of changing that are busy getting out of China, ideally forever. Whoever is left only stays to reinforce the status quo. Whoever was saying that "China is the future" in 2006 was at best a naive optimist. Whoever is saying that in 2016 is delusional.

dragonbonheur 11y ago

You'd better get used to that Chinese government, it's here to stay. Besides, what do you want? For the Communist party to devolve into US congress? And about those supposed Chinese people who don't want to stay - just like some minority of the US population doesn't want to pay their fair share of taxes or contribute positively to their local society and have thus mastered the shell company and tax haven game, there exists an equivalent minority of the Chinese population who don't want to do their part either and who are well-off enough to be noticed by foreign media when they move in expensive neighborhoods in western countries. The Chinese population being higher, that percentage of rich people fleeing will also be higher. And about China being taken seriously - are you really that naïve NOT to take them seriously? Do you not take the formidable number of Chinese people that have been lifted off abject poverty seriously? Do you not take the millions of kilometers of railroad that have been built both within and outside China by Chinese companies and people seriously? Do you not take the infrastructure that has been built, no questions asked, in Africa seriously while western nations have only taken from Africa while giving nothing in return except conflict and weapons? Do you not take seriously the information that a Chinese company, COSCO, recently became the operator of Greece's ports? Do you not take seriously that Chinese entrepreneurs, often being from a modest background themselves, left their country for Sub-Saharian Africa and Egypt and even Ethiopia and have become of the main providers of employment and growth and even HOPE-you-can-believe-in in those countries? I'm not a "China thumper", I'm not Chinese or even Asian - I just see the world as it is. I've seen the corruption in US government and I know about the pentagon's revolving door. It's also obvious that the British and to a somewhat lesser extent the French governments are sellouts of the oligarchs. If you want to argue about corruption in the Chinese government know first that their officials and their families are shown what life is like in prison when they take office so that they know the consequences of temptation. Maybe next you'd want to argue that China allegedly "stole" some islands in the South China Sea and is now threatening everyone, allegedly. Well, I'd argue that in 2011 an agreement was reached among SOVEREIGN (very important here and thus in caps) ASEAN nations and the Philippines decided to call in the oh-so-righteous United States to get things moving in their favor, thus the current clusterfuck. And besides the US and Britain already set the precedent by stealing the Chagos Archipelago and within it, Diego Garcia. Also note that they also unceremoniously removed all the inhabitants of these islands who were only allowed to carry ONE SINGLE BRIEFCASE worth of their possessions when they were put in the bottom of boats where quite a few got ill and even died. Then the US and Britain went on and declared the Chagos a marine protected area to obliterate any possibility that the Chagossians could return to their land. A marine protected area where they could safely keep nuclear weapons... What China is doing in the South China Sea, building islands and infrastructure to fight against piracy and more important, ensure safe harbor for ships in a world that will be increasingly affected by climate change, is patty cakes in comparison to what western nations have done. I believe the world needs balance - therefore it can't all be the oh-so-righteous Western system of "governance". A balance of power, a balance of opinions, a balance of superpowers. And having seen how corrupt and destructive Western governments have been and can be, my opinion -and mine only - is that China represent a good counterpoint to that corruption and destruction. China represents progress and hope in the long run. It's more likely that universal basic income and a post-scarcity society will come,and will be sustained, from Chinese culture and system of government than anywhere else. Why? Because it's the country where even farmers are crazy enough to build helicopters, submarines and robots for a hobby and in this world, the ones who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do.

idra 11y ago
Typical "50 cent troll" rhetoric. "The US and Britain have done bad things, so China can do them too". In fact, most of the points you've made are untrue and reek of CCP propaganda. >Do you not take the formidable number of Chinese people that have been lifted off abject poverty seriously? After China's own government has driven the entire country into famine and poverty, and destroyed any lingering of culture the country had. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution > Do you not take the millions of kilometers of railroad that have been built both within and outside China by Chinese companies and people seriously? Built quickly and shoddily with no safety standards. The major aim of building the high-speed rail network was to boost the GDP. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/18/world/asia/18rail.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/18/world/asia/18rail.html https://www.hongkongfp.com/2015/08/07/70-of-chinese-train-components-fail-safety-standards-chinas-railway-operator-reveals/ https://www.hongkongfp.com/2015/08/07/70-of-chinese-train-co... > Do you not take the infrastructure that has been built, no questions asked, in Africa seriously while western nations have only taken from Africa while giving nothing in return except conflict and weapons? > Do you not take seriously that Chinese entrepreneurs, often being from a modest background themselves, left their country for Sub-Saharian Africa and Egypt and even Ethiopia and have become of the main providers of employment and growth and even HOPE-you-can-believe-in in those countries? China has been routinely called "the new colonialists" for their actions in Africa. http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/china-in-africa-the-new-imperialists http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/china-in-africa-the-... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-echochambers-26328763 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-echochambers-26328763 >Do you not take seriously the information that a Chinese company, COSCO, recently became the operator of Greece's ports? Sole bid. No one else wanted it. http://www.wsj.com/articles/china-cosco-makes-sole-bid-for-greek-port-of-piraeus-1452619800 http://www.wsj.com/articles/china-cosco-makes-sole-bid-for-g... I'm not even going to start on your ridiculous claim about China "building islands and infrastructure to fight against piracy and more important, ensure safe harbor for ships in a world that will be increasingly affected by climate change" in the South China Sea, which is so bizarre that it needs no refutal. So, no, I don't take whatever you say seriously. In fact, I think you are a shill paid by the Chinese government to post this.

bottled_poe 11y ago

> Who want's to live in a China even Chinese people don't like or want to stay in It seem's that you are naive. Rich people are leaving because the standard of living is higher at the moment, but this will change. China is still developing, having spent the last 50 years lifting hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. Meanwhile, poverty in the US has increased to 14%. China will overtake the US as the dominant global superpower this century.

50CNT 11y ago
There's also the fact that proper communist china still lingers in the collective consciousness like IE6 does in webdesign. There used to be the communist party doctrine that individuals with possible grudges against the party within 3 generations would not be granted party membership. Some people that have money now would still count for this rule, which is another reason they might want some cash abroad.
idra 11y ago
Well, the "50 years" claim is simply not true, the whole lifting out of poverty thing started with the opening up and the influx of foreign investment to use cheap Chinese labour after Deng Xiaoping took power in 1978. Before that, the Chinese leadership under Mao were doing their best to drive all of China into poverty and famine. Have you ever been to China? I've lived in China over for 10 years until 2011, and it has always baffled me how so many foreigners were saying that China will be the economic superpower of the 21st century, and all I saw was a nation of poorly educated people with a cult of money, lack of any kind of moral compass and rampant corruption deeply embedded into the fabric of society. To be fair, it also had more or less developed infrastructure and lots of cheap labor that has made manufacturing in China profitable for international companies. I was trying to be positive and kept repeating the "in China it's different, they have a special Chinese way" mantra. Well, now the Chinese economy has now been exposed as the pyramid scheme it has always been and there is no light at the end of the tunnel. I see your claim that "the standard of living will change" as absolutely laughable, as any people who are capable of changing that are busy getting out of China, ideally forever. Whoever is left only stays to reinforce the status quo. Whoever was saying that "China is the future" in 2006 was at best a naive optimist. Whoever is saying that in 2016 is delusional.