14 ms·

Do you have kids in school? Because I do, in a highly valued school district (all 3 elementary schools in the top 20 in CA). In this district it's two things:

by e40 11y ago

Do you have kids in school? Because I do, in a highly valued school district (all 3 elementary schools in the top 20 in CA). In this district it's two things: 1. Parents freak out when their kids don't have a lot of homework. How do I know? One teacher told me they got complaints if they assigned too little homework, and complaints = being fired. 2. Fear of not being good enough to complete in the rat race. This is on the part of parents and it drives #1. I had long discussions with the principal of my son's middle school and I could tell he was completely powerless to make any changes. His job was to listen to me and make me feel heard. Problem was, I wanted action. I made my son update a spreadsheet, daily, of his homework per class. Estimated time to finish and actual time. It was a lot of data and when I delivered it to the principal he was a little speechless. He said he'd get back to me. Btw, the spreadsheet proved one thing: the official amount of homework per day was complete bullshit. Officially it was 1.5 hours. In reality it was 3-4. Weeks later I saw him at a school concert. He looked annoyed. He thanked me and said it was a "big help" and I could tell he thought he had more power than he did. He probably showed it to the superintendent of the district and they laid down the law. I never heard another word. The problem is institutional, massively reinforced by the parents. So we could ask, why are parents like this? One I touched on. The other is fear of what their kids will get into if they have free time away from home. I shit you not, I never see kids out and about in my city. On weekends, a little. During the week, never. Kids don't have free time (here) anymore. They have school. Some have sports and activities. The rest is eating and sleeping. It is complete craziness and I hate it and I feel terrible for my kid, but I can't afford private school and we're locked into this until he's out of this particular system.

sanderjd 11y ago
As far as I can tell, the best thing is to try to change the hearts and minds of the people around you. I don't have kids yet, and I'm not particularly optimistic that any of my friends, family, or community who will have kids at a similar time as me will agree with me about these sorts of things, but I plan to advocate for my perspective nonetheless!
- e40 11y ago
  I agree. I have tried. I've bent the ear of many parents. Most just don't care. They moved to this school district because of the good schools, which in their eyes means lots of homework.
zargon 11y ago
I'm curious... in elementary/middle school, what would the consequences be to instruct your kid to not do homework? Is homework a big enough part of their grade to prevent them from passing?
- e40 11y ago
  I don't know about elementary school, in middle school it would mean failing and having to redo the grade. EDIT: and I forgot to mention, I'm just one half of his parents. The other half doesn't believe what I believe. I am in the vast minority in my city.
- throwaway280 11y ago
  In high school I did near 0 homework. I ended up with a 69 average which rounded up to a 70 allowing me to graduate. I ranked in the bottom 20 students in a class size of around 450 students. I was a few questions away from a perfect score on my SAT and had an app with over 2 million users so I still got into a good college. So it is doable and I would still encourage others to refuse to do homework.
  - ejk314 11y ago
    This is such a risky game to play. Yes, I took a similar approach to HS with similar results. But I remember competing with another student to see who could do the best in a class without opening their book. I passed. I didn't do as well as I could have, but I passed. He wasn't so fortunate. By the time he accepted that he was behind, it was too late for him to save his grade. What I'm saying is, students should be taught which homework to do, not to just to skip it.
    - xiaoma 11y ago
      Getting a bad grade doesn't sound nearly as big of a risk as wasting one's childhood and adolescence.
      - JackFr 11y ago
eru 11y ago
What's the punishment for just not doing the homework?
- e40 11y ago
  Bad grades, of course.
  - MatthewWilkes 11y ago
    Elementary schools assign pass fail grades to classes? What's the fallout if you fail? This is all very foreign to me. When I was in primary school in thr UK 20 years ago we never received a single piece of homework and the only time we got graded was a national standardised test which was positioned as being more about the school than about us.
    - justinclift 11y ago
      Yeah. When I was a kid, I had a personal "no homework" policy. To me, school was a defined hours thing, and if they tried giving me stuff to do outside of that... that was their problem, not mine. I never bought into it, nor cared when a teacher complained. Didn't have a bad outcome from that approach either.
      - jkestner 11y ago
        Enlightened! I assume the typical startup work/life balance is not compatible with you.
        justinclift 11y ago
        Dunno. I've started and run my own businesses before, and generally that's taken huge effort. Been happy to do so, as they're obviously worthwhile endeavours. Homework though (of a school variety)... let's say I'm not convinced. :D
      - RUG3Y 11y ago
aagha 11y ago
Thanks for taking the time to post. However, we live in an area (Berkeley) where yes, kids have homework, but every single day of the week, after school, all the kids on the street are running up and down, riding bikes, playing wall-all, shooting hoops, and running in and out of eachothers' homes. In the evening, right when it gets dark, you see parents walking around or calling out their front door to ask the kids to come home. My son now carries a walkie-talkie with him and we signal to him to come home. Your experience is likely a function of your environment. Our neighborhood school is definitely not a top 20 CA school--or even a top 100 or 250 school. But, our kids are happy (except when they have to come in for the night!) and in turn, so are we.
- e40 11y ago
  That's the way it should be. I'm happy for the kids in your district. It's ironic, we moved from Berkeley to our current location because of the schools. My wife went to Berkeley High and I used to work a couple of blocks from it. I had a lot of relatives that went there. I really didn't want my kid to go there. Perhaps that was a mistake. I really don't know.
  - newscasta 11y ago
    It could just be self-selection at work. Highly-ranked schools might attract the kind of parents who want that kind of pressure.
- Ntrails 11y ago
  >after school, all the kids on the street are running up and down, riding bikes, playing wall-all, shooting hoops, and running in and out of eachothers' homes. Any parent who doesn't actively want that for their children over sitting at home struggling with homework is clearly mad. I really hope that eventually we come out of the other side of this obsession that children being forced to do large quantities of work that is joyless is a good thing. It is embedding all the worst associations between learning and enjoyment.
  - mistermann 11y ago
ThrustVectoring 11y ago
Have you looked into unschooling/homeschooling? If you can't afford an alternative with cash, you might be able to afford it with time.
- yoz-y 11y ago
  Coming from Europe I've never understood how home schooling works. Isn't the elementary education mandatory with a prescribed curriculum? Do parents who wish to home school their children have to prove that they are capable of mastering all the necessary subjects have solid pedagogical skills? Also, how is the time tracked? Are there any standardised (or at least independent) tests conducted at reasonable rate? (E.g.: does the kid have to go to school for a test every three months or so?)
  - tmsam 11y ago
    Elementary education is mandatory, but the curriculum is only mandated for public schools. The rules vary from state to state, but here they are for California: 1. File an annual private school affidavit. 2. Maintain an attendance register. 3. Instruction must be in English. 4. Instructors must be capable of teaching. 5. Provide instruction in the courses commonly taught in the public schools (e.g., language arts, math, science, social studies, health, and driver training). 6. Maintain immunization records or personal beliefs exemption. 7. Maintain a list of courses of study. 8. Maintain a list of instructors with their addresses and qualifications. This is MINIMALLY enforced. If the parent has a teaching credential, the rules are even more lax "The child must be taught for at least three hours a day, between 8:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m., for 175 days each school year in the several branches of study required to be taught by the public schools and in the English language."[1] On a related side notes, private schools also do not have to follow the curriculum set for public schools. There are even some public schools that are exempted from parts of the mandatory curriculum (charters). 1. http://www.hslda.org/hs101/CA.aspx http://www.hslda.org/hs101/CA.aspx
    - simonswords82 11y ago
      Wow - check out my summary of the UK home schooling process to the OP you responded to. Our approach is much more laissez faire than the US arrangement. Interesting.
MicroBerto 11y ago
More generalizing: I have found that Generation X parents are absolutely awful. I'm not sure why, but they are terrible at creating happy, healthy, and intelligent children. Your post adds more fuel to my inner argument.
- amyjess 11y ago
  Strauss & Howe generational theory talks about this. Basically, it's a vicious cycle. Generation X is of the "Nomad" archetype, and the current generation of kids, along with the Silent Generation, are of the "Artist" archetype. "Nomad" parents have "Artist" kids who grow up to become parents of "Nomad" kids, and so on... (a break here: Silents are born 1925-1942, Xers are born 1961-1981, and the current generation of kids -- which I don't think has a well-accepted name yet -- are born 2005 to present) "Artist" kids are raised by strict parents who expect the world of them -- punished for even the most minor transgressions but never praised for doing the right thing, they grow up repressed, and eventually hit a mid-life crisis where they finally snap and seek self-fulfillment late in life... typically after they've had kids. The kids, who are of "Nomad" generations, grow up being forced to take care of themselves because their parents are either a) off finding themselves and neglecting the kids and/or b) determined not to repeat their parents' mistakes and give the kids a little too much free rein. As such, "Nomad" kids become hard-edged, self-reliant cynics. When they grow up, however, they decide that unlike their parents, they're going to properly settle down and give their kids the structure they never had, and so they set high expectations and micromanage their kids' lives. These kids, of an "Artist" generation grow up horribly repressed, and in adulthood snap and finally seek the self-fulfillment they were denied in youth... The short version: "Artists" grow up with too much structure, try to make up for it later in life and end up raising "Nomad" kids with too little structure, who then try to make up for it later in life and end up raising "Artist" kids with too much structure, and so on... It's a really interesting theory, and the cycles of how different generations raise their kids is pretty core to the generational archetypes that drive the theory. (and if you're interested, there are two other archetypes: the "Prophet" archetype exemplified by the Baby Boomers, and the "Hero" archetype exemplified by the GI Generation and the Millennials) (and little personal anecdote here: I'm a Millennial child of a Silent father and a Boomer mother. This describes my dad's life to a T. He had a pretty repressed youth, he's acted like an immature troll for my entire life and he's only gotten more immature in his old age, he ended up leaving my mom when I was 6, my mom frequently describes him as "selfish" and "unthinking" -- and I'll add "scatterbrained" to the list -- and he spent the last 25 years flitting around from lifestyle to lifestyle, ending up spending several years as a cab driver in Vegas)
onion2k 11y ago
Perhaps the answer is that the homework is set but it's not compulsory, so it isn't marked or graded, and there's no punishment for failing to hand it in. Pushy parents can then enforce that their child completes it but more laid back parents can let their children do other things instead.
- anon4 11y ago
  And meaningless rewards like the kids who do the most homework get a star on their lapel and the honour of holding the flag while the principal gives a speech.
- klibertp 11y ago
  That won't work, because "pushy" parents are pushing children to do ever more homework because it's graded. In my experience, many parents think little about actual, real knowledge and skill. They instead care greatly about appearances and marks... Probably because it's easier to optimize for?
visarga 11y ago
If the school forces too much homework or useless subjects on children, conscious parents can respond by being more lax and accepting less than perfection from their kids. In this system (school-child-parent-exam), the parent is the only flexible link. As parents we don't have to be hard on kids that don't want to do homework or don't to great on some subjects. My own life experience tell me that success in elementary school does not equate with success in life. In fact even high-school and sometimes college are almost irrelevant to the kinds of tasks people have to solve once they get hired. It's more important to be creative, curious and passioned about something.
- ZainRiz 11y ago
  It helps that grades don't really matter in elementary school. Parents can allow their kids to slide by with the minimum grade without much of a consequence. The risk here is that kids might end up considered "less intelligent" or that they might start considering themselves to be C students. This risk would have to be counteracted by the parents discussing their plans with the teachers ahead of time and explaining why they're encouraging their kid to slack off, and parents would have to find other ways to boost their kids self confidence and love of knowledge.
S_A_P 11y ago
So I have 2 kids in one school, and 3 step kids in another. Both are private, both seem to emphasize the homework/responsibility as a sign of their "excellence". At first I agreed. Now I realize its a drain. A typical day after school involves cajoling an already tired kid(it takes about 30 minutes to drive to either school so they wake up earlier than most kids) that just wants a break into doing homework so that they can go do after school activities. Kids end up having a busier day than the adults, which to me, seems horribly wrong. There are a few options, limit after school sports(which also seems to have gone off the deep end in terms of the amount of work they want the kids to do, but that is another rant...) or put them back in public schools. However, in our local district, it doesn't really have that much less homework that we can tell, but it does have about twice the student-teacher ratio. I don't know that there is a great answer, but I think that maybe everyone should stop and take a deep breath and re-assess this mess.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
mfukar 11y ago
> I made my son update a spreadsheet, daily, of his homework per class. Estimated time to finish and actual time. It was a lot of data and when > [snip] > The problem is institutional, massively reinforced by the parents. > [snip] > It is complete craziness and I hate it and I feel terrible for my kid I sincerely can't understand what it is I'm reading.
- probably_wrong 11y ago
  He's not saying that the spreadsheet is an integral part of the homework process at his home (I think). Instead, he made an experiment (limited in time) to see how much homework his kid has. Then took the results to the school's principal, hopefully ending the experiment.
massysett 11y ago
I read stories like yours and I know they are true. Then I think of where I went to high school, where kids set off fireworks in the hallways and we were so routinely interrupted by fire alarms that they eventually removed the pull boxes. Too much homework? Ha. There is a startlingly huge gulf between the schools were the worry is "too much homework" and the schools were many children can barely read. I think the too much homework problem is legitimate...it's just amazing to me those schools and my schools can exist in the same country, in some cases just miles from each other. I think if my kid winds up with too much homework I will mostly be grateful that she is not spending instructional time outside waiting for the firemen to amble inside after another alarm.
- elviejo 11y ago
  But aren't both problem symptoms of the same core issue? the standardized model of education fails every one. I think in the near future each teacher will have at most 7 students... and each student will get personalized attention? Those teacher will come out of all the jobs that robots will disappear in manufacturing.
  - tracker1 11y ago
    And then the issues of facilities costs, and teacher funding.
- ajford 11y ago
  But how does homework affect whether students are roaming the halls during class time? That makes little sense. I am in my late 20's. I remember homework. I was super excited about school when I started High School. I was in the GT program, I was doing my homework like a good boy. But when I started HS and the homework was piled on, I burnt out. I was spending 3-4 hours a DAY working on homework. I hated it. By sophomore year, I had enough. I stopped doing HW. I went from an A+ student to a B/C student, but I had fun. I aced every test. I participated in class. I talked to the teachers about things after class/school. I even stuck around some classes after school and helped other students with their homework. I refused to do my own hw. I went home and got into electronics. Picked up programming. Studied physics on my own. It taught me something, it taught me that I can teach myself. That I can learn on my own. I understand that not everyone has the motivation to do so, but that is part of the fundamental problem. There are so many students in schools today that don't want to be there. I remember some of the worst trouble makers would disappear the day after they turned 16 and could legally drop out. I was in a tech based magnet program within my HS, and everyone in the program WANTED to be there. That made the world of difference. We rarely had outbreaks in the tech hall, rarely had troublesome students in the tech-only classes (usually math, upper level comp/lit, sciences, etc). These people wanted to be there and wouldn't interrupt others. But the amount of homework assigned isn't going to make a difference to those who don't give a rat's ass about being there in the first place.
LordKano 11y ago
I have two children in school. They attend a charter school. We live in the same school district that I attended as a child. The local schools are decent but the charter school is getting some fantastic results. These schools are taking children from low performing, impoverished areas and getting test scores that rival(or equal) test scores from affluent areas. One of my children usually finishes her homework before she leaves school and the teacher gives her "Extra credit" work to keep her from getting bored. The other one needs several hours after school to finish her homework. She has a low threshold for frustration and takes several breaks as she works on the homework. As her father, I can say that she needs the work in order to learn the material. I guess that the optimal load varies wildly from child to child and unfortunately, schools don't have the ability to adjust the workload individually and still provide objective evaluations of their performance.

by e40 11y ago

sanderjd 11y ago

As far as I can tell, the best thing is to try to change the hearts and minds of the people around you. I don't have kids yet, and I'm not particularly optimistic that any of my friends, family, or community who will have kids at a similar time as me will agree with me about these sorts of things, but I plan to advocate for my perspective nonetheless!

e40 11y ago
I agree. I have tried. I've bent the ear of many parents. Most just don't care. They moved to this school district because of the good schools, which in their eyes means lots of homework.

zargon 11y ago

I'm curious... in elementary/middle school, what would the consequences be to instruct your kid to not do homework? Is homework a big enough part of their grade to prevent them from passing?

e40 11y ago
I don't know about elementary school, in middle school it would mean failing and having to redo the grade. EDIT: and I forgot to mention, I'm just one half of his parents. The other half doesn't believe what I believe. I am in the vast minority in my city.
throwaway280 11y ago
In high school I did near 0 homework. I ended up with a 69 average which rounded up to a 70 allowing me to graduate. I ranked in the bottom 20 students in a class size of around 450 students. I was a few questions away from a perfect score on my SAT and had an app with over 2 million users so I still got into a good college. So it is doable and I would still encourage others to refuse to do homework.
- ejk314 11y ago
  This is such a risky game to play. Yes, I took a similar approach to HS with similar results. But I remember competing with another student to see who could do the best in a class without opening their book. I passed. I didn't do as well as I could have, but I passed. He wasn't so fortunate. By the time he accepted that he was behind, it was too late for him to save his grade. What I'm saying is, students should be taught which homework to do, not to just to skip it.
  - xiaoma 11y ago
    Getting a bad grade doesn't sound nearly as big of a risk as wasting one's childhood and adolescence.
    - JackFr 11y ago

eru 11y ago

What's the punishment for just not doing the homework?

e40 11y ago
Bad grades, of course.
- MatthewWilkes 11y ago
  Elementary schools assign pass fail grades to classes? What's the fallout if you fail? This is all very foreign to me. When I was in primary school in thr UK 20 years ago we never received a single piece of homework and the only time we got graded was a national standardised test which was positioned as being more about the school than about us.
  - justinclift 11y ago
    Yeah. When I was a kid, I had a personal "no homework" policy. To me, school was a defined hours thing, and if they tried giving me stuff to do outside of that... that was their problem, not mine. I never bought into it, nor cared when a teacher complained. Didn't have a bad outcome from that approach either.
    - jkestner 11y ago
      Enlightened! I assume the typical startup work/life balance is not compatible with you.
      - justinclift 11y ago
        Dunno. I've started and run my own businesses before, and generally that's taken huge effort. Been happy to do so, as they're obviously worthwhile endeavours. Homework though (of a school variety)... let's say I'm not convinced. :D
    - RUG3Y 11y ago

aagha 11y ago

Thanks for taking the time to post. However, we live in an area (Berkeley) where yes, kids have homework, but every single day of the week, after school, all the kids on the street are running up and down, riding bikes, playing wall-all, shooting hoops, and running in and out of eachothers' homes. In the evening, right when it gets dark, you see parents walking around or calling out their front door to ask the kids to come home. My son now carries a walkie-talkie with him and we signal to him to come home. Your experience is likely a function of your environment. Our neighborhood school is definitely not a top 20 CA school--or even a top 100 or 250 school. But, our kids are happy (except when they have to come in for the night!) and in turn, so are we.

e40 11y ago
That's the way it should be. I'm happy for the kids in your district. It's ironic, we moved from Berkeley to our current location because of the schools. My wife went to Berkeley High and I used to work a couple of blocks from it. I had a lot of relatives that went there. I really didn't want my kid to go there. Perhaps that was a mistake. I really don't know.
- newscasta 11y ago
  It could just be self-selection at work. Highly-ranked schools might attract the kind of parents who want that kind of pressure.
Ntrails 11y ago
>after school, all the kids on the street are running up and down, riding bikes, playing wall-all, shooting hoops, and running in and out of eachothers' homes. Any parent who doesn't actively want that for their children over sitting at home struggling with homework is clearly mad. I really hope that eventually we come out of the other side of this obsession that children being forced to do large quantities of work that is joyless is a good thing. It is embedding all the worst associations between learning and enjoyment.
- mistermann 11y ago

ThrustVectoring 11y ago

Have you looked into unschooling/homeschooling? If you can't afford an alternative with cash, you might be able to afford it with time.

yoz-y 11y ago
Coming from Europe I've never understood how home schooling works. Isn't the elementary education mandatory with a prescribed curriculum? Do parents who wish to home school their children have to prove that they are capable of mastering all the necessary subjects have solid pedagogical skills? Also, how is the time tracked? Are there any standardised (or at least independent) tests conducted at reasonable rate? (E.g.: does the kid have to go to school for a test every three months or so?)
- tmsam 11y ago
  Elementary education is mandatory, but the curriculum is only mandated for public schools. The rules vary from state to state, but here they are for California: 1. File an annual private school affidavit. 2. Maintain an attendance register. 3. Instruction must be in English. 4. Instructors must be capable of teaching. 5. Provide instruction in the courses commonly taught in the public schools (e.g., language arts, math, science, social studies, health, and driver training). 6. Maintain immunization records or personal beliefs exemption. 7. Maintain a list of courses of study. 8. Maintain a list of instructors with their addresses and qualifications. This is MINIMALLY enforced. If the parent has a teaching credential, the rules are even more lax "The child must be taught for at least three hours a day, between 8:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m., for 175 days each school year in the several branches of study required to be taught by the public schools and in the English language."[1] On a related side notes, private schools also do not have to follow the curriculum set for public schools. There are even some public schools that are exempted from parts of the mandatory curriculum (charters). 1. http://www.hslda.org/hs101/CA.aspx http://www.hslda.org/hs101/CA.aspx
  - simonswords82 11y ago
    Wow - check out my summary of the UK home schooling process to the OP you responded to. Our approach is much more laissez faire than the US arrangement. Interesting.

MicroBerto 11y ago

More generalizing: I have found that Generation X parents are absolutely awful. I'm not sure why, but they are terrible at creating happy, healthy, and intelligent children. Your post adds more fuel to my inner argument.

amyjess 11y ago
Strauss & Howe generational theory talks about this. Basically, it's a vicious cycle. Generation X is of the "Nomad" archetype, and the current generation of kids, along with the Silent Generation, are of the "Artist" archetype. "Nomad" parents have "Artist" kids who grow up to become parents of "Nomad" kids, and so on... (a break here: Silents are born 1925-1942, Xers are born 1961-1981, and the current generation of kids -- which I don't think has a well-accepted name yet -- are born 2005 to present) "Artist" kids are raised by strict parents who expect the world of them -- punished for even the most minor transgressions but never praised for doing the right thing, they grow up repressed, and eventually hit a mid-life crisis where they finally snap and seek self-fulfillment late in life... typically after they've had kids. The kids, who are of "Nomad" generations, grow up being forced to take care of themselves because their parents are either a) off finding themselves and neglecting the kids and/or b) determined not to repeat their parents' mistakes and give the kids a little too much free rein. As such, "Nomad" kids become hard-edged, self-reliant cynics. When they grow up, however, they decide that unlike their parents, they're going to properly settle down and give their kids the structure they never had, and so they set high expectations and micromanage their kids' lives. These kids, of an "Artist" generation grow up horribly repressed, and in adulthood snap and finally seek the self-fulfillment they were denied in youth... The short version: "Artists" grow up with too much structure, try to make up for it later in life and end up raising "Nomad" kids with too little structure, who then try to make up for it later in life and end up raising "Artist" kids with too much structure, and so on... It's a really interesting theory, and the cycles of how different generations raise their kids is pretty core to the generational archetypes that drive the theory. (and if you're interested, there are two other archetypes: the "Prophet" archetype exemplified by the Baby Boomers, and the "Hero" archetype exemplified by the GI Generation and the Millennials) (and little personal anecdote here: I'm a Millennial child of a Silent father and a Boomer mother. This describes my dad's life to a T. He had a pretty repressed youth, he's acted like an immature troll for my entire life and he's only gotten more immature in his old age, he ended up leaving my mom when I was 6, my mom frequently describes him as "selfish" and "unthinking" -- and I'll add "scatterbrained" to the list -- and he spent the last 25 years flitting around from lifestyle to lifestyle, ending up spending several years as a cab driver in Vegas)

onion2k 11y ago

Perhaps the answer is that the homework is set but it's not compulsory, so it isn't marked or graded, and there's no punishment for failing to hand it in. Pushy parents can then enforce that their child completes it but more laid back parents can let their children do other things instead.

anon4 11y ago
And meaningless rewards like the kids who do the most homework get a star on their lapel and the honour of holding the flag while the principal gives a speech.
klibertp 11y ago
That won't work, because "pushy" parents are pushing children to do ever more homework because it's graded. In my experience, many parents think little about actual, real knowledge and skill. They instead care greatly about appearances and marks... Probably because it's easier to optimize for?

visarga 11y ago

If the school forces too much homework or useless subjects on children, conscious parents can respond by being more lax and accepting less than perfection from their kids. In this system (school-child-parent-exam), the parent is the only flexible link. As parents we don't have to be hard on kids that don't want to do homework or don't to great on some subjects. My own life experience tell me that success in elementary school does not equate with success in life. In fact even high-school and sometimes college are almost irrelevant to the kinds of tasks people have to solve once they get hired. It's more important to be creative, curious and passioned about something.

ZainRiz 11y ago
It helps that grades don't really matter in elementary school. Parents can allow their kids to slide by with the minimum grade without much of a consequence. The risk here is that kids might end up considered "less intelligent" or that they might start considering themselves to be C students. This risk would have to be counteracted by the parents discussing their plans with the teachers ahead of time and explaining why they're encouraging their kid to slack off, and parents would have to find other ways to boost their kids self confidence and love of knowledge.

S_A_P 11y ago

So I have 2 kids in one school, and 3 step kids in another. Both are private, both seem to emphasize the homework/responsibility as a sign of their "excellence". At first I agreed. Now I realize its a drain. A typical day after school involves cajoling an already tired kid(it takes about 30 minutes to drive to either school so they wake up earlier than most kids) that just wants a break into doing homework so that they can go do after school activities. Kids end up having a busier day than the adults, which to me, seems horribly wrong. There are a few options, limit after school sports(which also seems to have gone off the deep end in terms of the amount of work they want the kids to do, but that is another rant...) or put them back in public schools. However, in our local district, it doesn't really have that much less homework that we can tell, but it does have about twice the student-teacher ratio. I don't know that there is a great answer, but I think that maybe everyone should stop and take a deep breath and re-assess this mess.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

mfukar 11y ago

> I made my son update a spreadsheet, daily, of his homework per class. Estimated time to finish and actual time. It was a lot of data and when > [snip] > The problem is institutional, massively reinforced by the parents. > [snip] > It is complete craziness and I hate it and I feel terrible for my kid I sincerely can't understand what it is I'm reading.

probably_wrong 11y ago
He's not saying that the spreadsheet is an integral part of the homework process at his home (I think). Instead, he made an experiment (limited in time) to see how much homework his kid has. Then took the results to the school's principal, hopefully ending the experiment.

massysett 11y ago

I read stories like yours and I know they are true. Then I think of where I went to high school, where kids set off fireworks in the hallways and we were so routinely interrupted by fire alarms that they eventually removed the pull boxes. Too much homework? Ha. There is a startlingly huge gulf between the schools were the worry is "too much homework" and the schools were many children can barely read. I think the too much homework problem is legitimate...it's just amazing to me those schools and my schools can exist in the same country, in some cases just miles from each other. I think if my kid winds up with too much homework I will mostly be grateful that she is not spending instructional time outside waiting for the firemen to amble inside after another alarm.

elviejo 11y ago
But aren't both problem symptoms of the same core issue? the standardized model of education fails every one. I think in the near future each teacher will have at most 7 students... and each student will get personalized attention? Those teacher will come out of all the jobs that robots will disappear in manufacturing.
- tracker1 11y ago
  And then the issues of facilities costs, and teacher funding.
ajford 11y ago
But how does homework affect whether students are roaming the halls during class time? That makes little sense. I am in my late 20's. I remember homework. I was super excited about school when I started High School. I was in the GT program, I was doing my homework like a good boy. But when I started HS and the homework was piled on, I burnt out. I was spending 3-4 hours a DAY working on homework. I hated it. By sophomore year, I had enough. I stopped doing HW. I went from an A+ student to a B/C student, but I had fun. I aced every test. I participated in class. I talked to the teachers about things after class/school. I even stuck around some classes after school and helped other students with their homework. I refused to do my own hw. I went home and got into electronics. Picked up programming. Studied physics on my own. It taught me something, it taught me that I can teach myself. That I can learn on my own. I understand that not everyone has the motivation to do so, but that is part of the fundamental problem. There are so many students in schools today that don't want to be there. I remember some of the worst trouble makers would disappear the day after they turned 16 and could legally drop out. I was in a tech based magnet program within my HS, and everyone in the program WANTED to be there. That made the world of difference. We rarely had outbreaks in the tech hall, rarely had troublesome students in the tech-only classes (usually math, upper level comp/lit, sciences, etc). These people wanted to be there and wouldn't interrupt others. But the amount of homework assigned isn't going to make a difference to those who don't give a rat's ass about being there in the first place.

LordKano 11y ago

I have two children in school. They attend a charter school. We live in the same school district that I attended as a child. The local schools are decent but the charter school is getting some fantastic results. These schools are taking children from low performing, impoverished areas and getting test scores that rival(or equal) test scores from affluent areas. One of my children usually finishes her homework before she leaves school and the teacher gives her "Extra credit" work to keep her from getting bored. The other one needs several hours after school to finish her homework. She has a low threshold for frustration and takes several breaks as she works on the homework. As her father, I can say that she needs the work in order to learn the material. I guess that the optimal load varies wildly from child to child and unfortunately, schools don't have the ability to adjust the workload individually and still provide objective evaluations of their performance.