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Apple said that could sync the data if the AppleID password wasn't changed. Can Apple just revert the AppleID account on their servers to a backup with the old

by croddin 11y ago

Apple said that could sync the data if the AppleID password wasn't changed. Can Apple just revert the AppleID account on their servers to a backup with the old password hash (or however it is stored)? Why wouldn't this work? Has something on the phone changed because of the password change or is Apple unwilling or unable to revert the AppleID account?

chime 11y ago
The local device could have cleared the stored password if the remote server rejected it even once.
- an_account 11y ago
  I doubt it based on my past experience. After I changed my iCloud email/password my phone tried to use the old one for months, and I had to escalate the issue high up Apple Support to get it fixed (you can't erase your iPhone without proper iCloud credentials if findmyiphone is enabled). That also involved my email, so it was slightly different.
- nkurz 11y ago
  Could have, and perhaps should have, but I haven't seen anyone claim that it actually does delete the stored password after a failure. And it would be awkward if the automatic backup stopped functioning and required manual intervention after each intermittent network failure. It should be fairly easy for someone with an iPhone to test and find out.
  - jjnoakes 11y ago
    > And it would be awkward if the automatic backup stopped functioning and required manual intervention after each intermittent network failure. But not awkward after a valid reply from the server saying "password incorrect".
    - nkurz 11y ago
      Possible, but still awkward. If the network failure is between the server and the password database, it would still need to distinguish between "password permanently incorrect" and "password temporarily incorrect". But my stronger point was that there is no need to speculate, since someone with an iPhone can verify what actually happens. Set up backups, change the password, verify that it fails, change the password back, and report what happens.
      - kiallmacinnes 11y ago
        If the HTTP status code is 5xx, keep the password. If the HTTP status code is 4xx, delete the password. Obviously making some assumptions (like HTTP, or a 5xx on network fail between internal services), but telling the difference between "user supplied bad data" and "the server messed up" really isn't that awkward at all.
        chime 11y ago
        That's exactly what we do in one of our iPad apps.
      - jjnoakes 11y ago
        Changing the password back from the client side is not a good test. The salt may be different, the hashing may have changed, etc. For a real test, the server side hash must be saved and restored. Good luck.
jessaustin 11y ago
Can Apple just revert the AppleID account on their servers to a backup with the old password hash? If it were just a password hash and Apple still had that hash, then probably so. Is that actually how this information is stored? ISTM it could be something more complex. The system was not designed to support the FBI's intended use, so the fact that Apple could have logged and stored all sorts of things doesn't indicate that they did.

by croddin 11y ago

chime 11y ago

The local device could have cleared the stored password if the remote server rejected it even once.

an_account 11y ago
I doubt it based on my past experience. After I changed my iCloud email/password my phone tried to use the old one for months, and I had to escalate the issue high up Apple Support to get it fixed (you can't erase your iPhone without proper iCloud credentials if findmyiphone is enabled). That also involved my email, so it was slightly different.
nkurz 11y ago
Could have, and perhaps should have, but I haven't seen anyone claim that it actually does delete the stored password after a failure. And it would be awkward if the automatic backup stopped functioning and required manual intervention after each intermittent network failure. It should be fairly easy for someone with an iPhone to test and find out.
- jjnoakes 11y ago
  > And it would be awkward if the automatic backup stopped functioning and required manual intervention after each intermittent network failure. But not awkward after a valid reply from the server saying "password incorrect".
  - nkurz 11y ago
    Possible, but still awkward. If the network failure is between the server and the password database, it would still need to distinguish between "password permanently incorrect" and "password temporarily incorrect". But my stronger point was that there is no need to speculate, since someone with an iPhone can verify what actually happens. Set up backups, change the password, verify that it fails, change the password back, and report what happens.
    - kiallmacinnes 11y ago
      If the HTTP status code is 5xx, keep the password. If the HTTP status code is 4xx, delete the password. Obviously making some assumptions (like HTTP, or a 5xx on network fail between internal services), but telling the difference between "user supplied bad data" and "the server messed up" really isn't that awkward at all.
      - chime 11y ago
        That's exactly what we do in one of our iPad apps.
    - jjnoakes 11y ago
      Changing the password back from the client side is not a good test. The salt may be different, the hashing may have changed, etc. For a real test, the server side hash must be saved and restored. Good luck.

jessaustin 11y ago

Can Apple just revert the AppleID account on their servers to a backup with the old password hash? If it were just a password hash and Apple still had that hash, then probably so. Is that actually how this information is stored? ISTM it could be something more complex. The system was not designed to support the FBI's intended use, so the fact that Apple could have logged and stored all sorts of things doesn't indicate that they did.