4 ms·

In Canada, Montreal is a great city with reasonable living costs and a decent tech scene (esp game development). Climate will probably scare away anyone not ori

In Canada, Montreal is a great city with reasonable living costs and a decent tech scene (esp game development). Climate will probably scare away anyone not originally from the east coast or midwest though. Toronto and Vancouver, despite having some pluses, unfortunately can't be recommended to anyone that cares about cost of housing.

raverbashing 11y ago
I, unfortunately, will have to downplay this suggestion If you don't know French some opportunities are not at your reach There aren't a lot of positions, depending on the area, also the market seem to put outsiders in 2nd place (basically anyone that's not from Quebec)
- woud420 11y ago
  Although I agree with the downplaying of the suggestion, I really disagree with the reasons. Most companies I've worked with in Montreal, english is often the main language in the office (almost to a fault) and companies are STARVED for talent. It's very, very hard to hire people in Montreal, there's a lot of competition (like pretty much anywhere else). Outsiders are very welcomed if they bring well needed help. However, salaries are very low, taxes incredibly high and while real estate is affordable, don't expect to live close to the city or to have a lot of money in your pocket at the end of the day.
  - atomic77 11y ago
    To address both comments - I didn't mean to suggest Montreal is the new promised land, just to add some discussion of non-US locations that may hold promise since the comments had been US-centric. Most tech people working in the US likely will be shocked at how little tech workers are paid in most of the rest of the world, including Canada. But not everything is about absolute salary. Montreal, imo, provides a well-balanced quality of life for a wide range of demographics. Good schools and govt-provided health care for those with families. Bilingualism for the culturally inclined. Nearby mountains and wilderness for nature lovers. Unrivalled nightlife for the younger who want to party it up. I don't know of another place that can offer all of those things together.
    - woud420 11y ago
      For a non US location, I agree. I mean don't get me wrong, Montreal is a nice city to live, the culture is great, the people are nice, a lot of great restaurants and what not. While I don't think healthcare is that great, if you don't have insurance, it is enticing to think about. However, from somebody coming out of SF, they do have to expect their in pocket income after expenses to drop significantly, on the range of 50 to 60% and up. In this case, salary is a VERY important consideration.
      - atomic77 11y ago
        Fair enough. My only point is that salary is only one part of the equation when you compare a place like Montreal to the bay area - public services, being in a better overall state in terms of priority and financing mean that you don't need as much money to have a good quality of life.
    - Chris911 11y ago
      What do you think is the average software developer salary in Montreal?
      - simlejeune 11y ago
        How much you make? ;)
      - auxym 11y ago
        Throwing a wild guess (not even in the industry), but I'd be pretty surprised if it were above 100k. Or even 90. To put this in perspective though, you can rent a reasonable 2BR for 800-1000, even not that far from the city center. GF and I rent a 1BR a bit farther, but still close enough that she can bike to her downtown work in the summer, for a fair amount less than that.
  - raverbashing 11y ago
    Yes, the main language is usually English "and companies are STARVED for talent. It's very, very hard to hire people in Montreal" Yadda, yadda, yadda I spent a couple of months sending CVs around Montreal (this was after having Canadian experience) to no avail, just to have several ones take me seriously in Toronto and actually make an offer So yeah, they're starved by their own doing. (And I do speak French actually) The city is lovely, very cultural, I love it, but the fact that it's an Island makes real-estate issues "interesting". Worse taxi-drivers on the planet though (but now there's Uber)
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
Apocryphon 11y ago
It's interesting you brought up Montreal, since I've been hearing a little amount of buzz about it, at least from this link: https://www.busbud.com/blog/benefits-of-being-a-montreal-startup-developer/ https://www.busbud.com/blog/benefits-of-being-a-montreal-sta... Vancouver is more expensive, and Toronto has more traffic, from what I've heard, but the low salaries in MTL sound like a downer.
- atomic77 11y ago
  No question the salaries are lower, but two things balance that out. Income distribution is somewhat more even in Canada, so maybe you don't make as much but the people in 'lower' positions make more, relatively. This is actually a feature, not a bug - the city is safe, there is still a middle class, public services work (relatively) well and you can walk around as a tech person without worrying about a person randomly punching you. Second is that you will not have to worry about, and save for, large costs like health care and schooling. People in the US seem to go way outside of their budget just in order to get into a district with good public schools, or, pay an obscene amount for private schooling. That kind of adds up over 18 years. Private schools in Canada exist, but by no means are you disadvantaged in life if you grow up in an average middle class area and go to a public school.
  - Apocryphon 11y ago
    Those are all helpful and reassuring things to know. Thanks for answering some of the critiques! One more question- how's the climate? Montreal is north of Chicago and New York, after all...
    - auxym 11y ago
      This winter's been pretty warm with little snowfall, I think we only had one real cold snap dropping below -20C, and only one major snowstorm in early january. But I like winter in the city. I live walking distance from a large park where I can cross country ski. I heard last winter was much colder on average, though I was lucky anough to spend that time on the west coast. Coming from a few other places in Quebec, Montreal so far strikes me as having milder winter. Probably harsher than NY, though.

raverbashing 11y ago

I, unfortunately, will have to downplay this suggestion If you don't know French some opportunities are not at your reach There aren't a lot of positions, depending on the area, also the market seem to put outsiders in 2nd place (basically anyone that's not from Quebec)

woud420 11y ago
Although I agree with the downplaying of the suggestion, I really disagree with the reasons. Most companies I've worked with in Montreal, english is often the main language in the office (almost to a fault) and companies are STARVED for talent. It's very, very hard to hire people in Montreal, there's a lot of competition (like pretty much anywhere else). Outsiders are very welcomed if they bring well needed help. However, salaries are very low, taxes incredibly high and while real estate is affordable, don't expect to live close to the city or to have a lot of money in your pocket at the end of the day.
- atomic77 11y ago
  To address both comments - I didn't mean to suggest Montreal is the new promised land, just to add some discussion of non-US locations that may hold promise since the comments had been US-centric. Most tech people working in the US likely will be shocked at how little tech workers are paid in most of the rest of the world, including Canada. But not everything is about absolute salary. Montreal, imo, provides a well-balanced quality of life for a wide range of demographics. Good schools and govt-provided health care for those with families. Bilingualism for the culturally inclined. Nearby mountains and wilderness for nature lovers. Unrivalled nightlife for the younger who want to party it up. I don't know of another place that can offer all of those things together.
  - woud420 11y ago
    For a non US location, I agree. I mean don't get me wrong, Montreal is a nice city to live, the culture is great, the people are nice, a lot of great restaurants and what not. While I don't think healthcare is that great, if you don't have insurance, it is enticing to think about. However, from somebody coming out of SF, they do have to expect their in pocket income after expenses to drop significantly, on the range of 50 to 60% and up. In this case, salary is a VERY important consideration.
    - atomic77 11y ago
      Fair enough. My only point is that salary is only one part of the equation when you compare a place like Montreal to the bay area - public services, being in a better overall state in terms of priority and financing mean that you don't need as much money to have a good quality of life.
  - Chris911 11y ago
    What do you think is the average software developer salary in Montreal?
    - simlejeune 11y ago
      How much you make? ;)
    - auxym 11y ago
      Throwing a wild guess (not even in the industry), but I'd be pretty surprised if it were above 100k. Or even 90. To put this in perspective though, you can rent a reasonable 2BR for 800-1000, even not that far from the city center. GF and I rent a 1BR a bit farther, but still close enough that she can bike to her downtown work in the summer, for a fair amount less than that.
- raverbashing 11y ago
  Yes, the main language is usually English "and companies are STARVED for talent. It's very, very hard to hire people in Montreal" Yadda, yadda, yadda I spent a couple of months sending CVs around Montreal (this was after having Canadian experience) to no avail, just to have several ones take me seriously in Toronto and actually make an offer So yeah, they're starved by their own doing. (And I do speak French actually) The city is lovely, very cultural, I love it, but the fact that it's an Island makes real-estate issues "interesting". Worse taxi-drivers on the planet though (but now there's Uber)
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

Apocryphon 11y ago

It's interesting you brought up Montreal, since I've been hearing a little amount of buzz about it, at least from this link: https://www.busbud.com/blog/benefits-of-being-a-montreal-startup-developer/ https://www.busbud.com/blog/benefits-of-being-a-montreal-sta... Vancouver is more expensive, and Toronto has more traffic, from what I've heard, but the low salaries in MTL sound like a downer.

atomic77 11y ago
No question the salaries are lower, but two things balance that out. Income distribution is somewhat more even in Canada, so maybe you don't make as much but the people in 'lower' positions make more, relatively. This is actually a feature, not a bug - the city is safe, there is still a middle class, public services work (relatively) well and you can walk around as a tech person without worrying about a person randomly punching you. Second is that you will not have to worry about, and save for, large costs like health care and schooling. People in the US seem to go way outside of their budget just in order to get into a district with good public schools, or, pay an obscene amount for private schooling. That kind of adds up over 18 years. Private schools in Canada exist, but by no means are you disadvantaged in life if you grow up in an average middle class area and go to a public school.
- Apocryphon 11y ago
  Those are all helpful and reassuring things to know. Thanks for answering some of the critiques! One more question- how's the climate? Montreal is north of Chicago and New York, after all...
  - auxym 11y ago
    This winter's been pretty warm with little snowfall, I think we only had one real cold snap dropping below -20C, and only one major snowstorm in early january. But I like winter in the city. I live walking distance from a large park where I can cross country ski. I heard last winter was much colder on average, though I was lucky anough to spend that time on the west coast. Coming from a few other places in Quebec, Montreal so far strikes me as having milder winter. Probably harsher than NY, though.