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> English is infinitely more scalable than any programming language, and the brain is far more capable of understanding than a computer. So comparing the two is

> English is infinitely more scalable than any programming language, and the brain is far more capable of understanding than a computer. So comparing the two is unfair to say the least. IMHO programming a large system shouldn't be all that different from writing an encyclopedia, or rather a math textbook; the same combination of informal explanation and formal demonstrations could be the shape that "visual" programs could take. Literate programming is written in English, and it provides much of the same advantages of the encyclopedia or technical book. Systems like IPython / Jupyter work in that direction, and they belong in the family of visual programming (although they use "classic" languages for the formal part, nothing stops them from also including graphical models as part of the code specification). Programming languages should be made for human consumption, and one of the promises of visual languages is that they use secondary notation to convey the meaning of the program, so that parts that are not visible to the compiler are still relevant. I believe that programming environments should converge towards a hybrid of programming, using the best representation for each concept - like text (to represent abstract concepts), diagrams (to represent more physical properties - time, data flows, and dependencies between modules), and raw text for the human-readable comments that explain how everything is tied together. If you build a programming environment like that, my comparison is not unfair at all. >Live programming for instance requires context and re-running of code on every edit (and we could be talking millions of lines of code that need to execute), re-reading of data files, re-running of prior user input and so on. There's a reason it is only implemented for small systems (read, useless practically). Modern IDEs are capable of doing a lot of that when in debug mode, I see no reason why having a language with a graphical syntax should make any difference - it just places a little more weight on the parser and graphic card.

the_af 11y ago
> Programming languages should be made for human consumption The problem here is the "impedance mistmach" between humans and computers. Wikipedia is not a good example: it is exclusively for humans. If there is a "program" for the computer, it's minimal: "search this", "when I click here, take me to this page" (you'll notice everything more complex than that, even in Wikipedia, requires its own mini-language). This is the kind of trivial systems which are easily encoded by "visual" programming. The problem is that real computer systems need to be understood by the computer as well as by humans. In order for something to be understood by a computer, it must be specified in formal terms; English -- natural language, actually -- is terrible for this. Once you're working in a complex system with a formal language, the limitations of these "visual" tools become evident.
- TuringTest 11y ago
  > Wikipedia is not a good example: it is exclusively for humans. Not exclusively. Bots and Wikidata have shown themselves pretty capable of doing complex automated tasks on top of the structured data contained in the encyclopedia. And the wiki platform plus templates is a very general and flexible data structure that makes it easy for humans and software to collaborate. > In order for something to be understood by a computer, it must be specified in formal terms This doesn't need to be that way, at least not for 100% of the system. End-user development tools like spreadsheets and Programming By Example can be used to ease the impedance mismatch without requiring the human to specify by hand every single step in a formal language, so that partially ambiguous inputs can be used to specify valid programs. Only the task of building system software should require the full technical approach; most business applications can benefit from looser approaches - in fact being less strict can be a benefit in the requirements specification phase, just like User-centered design has shown us. Combine that with logic solvers and deep learning, and in the future we could get some systems that can use very high-level commands to build fairly complex automated behaviors.
  - the_af 11y ago
    You have a point about wiki bots, I hadn't thought of that. But isn't the "Wiki platform plus templates" an example of a textual programming language with a precise syntax and rules? As for the rest, I think it's a pipe dream except for the most basic, "build this out of predetermined blocks" apps.
    - TuringTest 11y ago
      Does the Visual Editor in Wikipedia count as a visual tool? :-P My point is that the structure of a wiki, where each unit of content is a separate building block, can be used to build a visual system in the same way that you can build a textual one; the basic components of storage and APIs are the same, only the thin syntax layer is different. You are no longer dependent on the single stream of raw text following a strict syntax, which is the basis from which compilers generate binary code in traditional languages; you'd be able to build programs by arranging code and data in a network within a semi-structured platform, which is one of the characteristics of visual tools. You're right that stuff like this has been a pipe dream for at least half a century, since the Mother of All Demos; but in the very recent years I've seen a lot of the required pieces falling into place, so I believe it to be possible. If we apply the same amount of engineering work and refinements that went form Engelbart's demo to modern desktop systems, we could have a functioning system with this paradigm; the basis are in place for it, and many of us have the vision of the benefits it shall provide. Of course, part of building a program may require describing some components using a textual representation, where it makes the most sense; but with a wiki-like "outliner" platform, parts of the working system could be programmed using visual code, and be integrated with those other components programmed in traditional languages. Heck, GUI builders and visual tools for database schemas already work that way; the only thing they lack is the capability to be expanded with new components, which this new family of visual tools have.

the_af 11y ago

> Programming languages should be made for human consumption The problem here is the "impedance mistmach" between humans and computers. Wikipedia is not a good example: it is exclusively for humans. If there is a "program" for the computer, it's minimal: "search this", "when I click here, take me to this page" (you'll notice everything more complex than that, even in Wikipedia, requires its own mini-language). This is the kind of trivial systems which are easily encoded by "visual" programming. The problem is that real computer systems need to be understood by the computer as well as by humans. In order for something to be understood by a computer, it must be specified in formal terms; English -- natural language, actually -- is terrible for this. Once you're working in a complex system with a formal language, the limitations of these "visual" tools become evident.

TuringTest 11y ago
> Wikipedia is not a good example: it is exclusively for humans. Not exclusively. Bots and Wikidata have shown themselves pretty capable of doing complex automated tasks on top of the structured data contained in the encyclopedia. And the wiki platform plus templates is a very general and flexible data structure that makes it easy for humans and software to collaborate. > In order for something to be understood by a computer, it must be specified in formal terms This doesn't need to be that way, at least not for 100% of the system. End-user development tools like spreadsheets and Programming By Example can be used to ease the impedance mismatch without requiring the human to specify by hand every single step in a formal language, so that partially ambiguous inputs can be used to specify valid programs. Only the task of building system software should require the full technical approach; most business applications can benefit from looser approaches - in fact being less strict can be a benefit in the requirements specification phase, just like User-centered design has shown us. Combine that with logic solvers and deep learning, and in the future we could get some systems that can use very high-level commands to build fairly complex automated behaviors.
- the_af 11y ago
  You have a point about wiki bots, I hadn't thought of that. But isn't the "Wiki platform plus templates" an example of a textual programming language with a precise syntax and rules? As for the rest, I think it's a pipe dream except for the most basic, "build this out of predetermined blocks" apps.
  - TuringTest 11y ago
    Does the Visual Editor in Wikipedia count as a visual tool? :-P My point is that the structure of a wiki, where each unit of content is a separate building block, can be used to build a visual system in the same way that you can build a textual one; the basic components of storage and APIs are the same, only the thin syntax layer is different. You are no longer dependent on the single stream of raw text following a strict syntax, which is the basis from which compilers generate binary code in traditional languages; you'd be able to build programs by arranging code and data in a network within a semi-structured platform, which is one of the characteristics of visual tools. You're right that stuff like this has been a pipe dream for at least half a century, since the Mother of All Demos; but in the very recent years I've seen a lot of the required pieces falling into place, so I believe it to be possible. If we apply the same amount of engineering work and refinements that went form Engelbart's demo to modern desktop systems, we could have a functioning system with this paradigm; the basis are in place for it, and many of us have the vision of the benefits it shall provide. Of course, part of building a program may require describing some components using a textual representation, where it makes the most sense; but with a wiki-like "outliner" platform, parts of the working system could be programmed using visual code, and be integrated with those other components programmed in traditional languages. Heck, GUI builders and visual tools for database schemas already work that way; the only thing they lack is the capability to be expanded with new components, which this new family of visual tools have.