4 ms·

I'd add to this that millennials are getting married later than any previous generation, and marriage allows one to share resources with a partner and therefore

I'd add to this that millennials are getting married later than any previous generation, and marriage allows one to share resources with a partner and therefore reduce expenses.

Mikeb85 11y ago
And we're getting married later because 'adulthood' starts later. It used to be the case that you could support a family with a job you get at 18. If you did go to university, it was easy to pay for and generally not too hard to graduate in 4 years. A bachelor's degree was valuable. Today, good luck graduating in 4 years. Not to mention, a bachelor's degree is worth far less, graduate degrees or dual degrees are the thing now. By the time you go through university (5-8 years), work your (probably unpaid) internship, and get a job that gives you so much as a hope of a decent, middle class life, you're probably 25-28 years old. And unless you found your future spouse in university, then there's at least a year of dating, a year or two of engagement (since wedding venues are damn near impossible to find), and you're getting married at 30+. Anyhow of course that's above the average, plenty get married young, but then again, plenty are poor too. Poor people can get married younger by skipping the whole university thing, but then that does diminish their income potential for their lives. This is what I did, then went to university. Now I'm still 30+, albeit married, but no kids yet. Anyhow, the point is, marriage generally comes as a result of financial stability, not the other way around, though you're right that it does reduce expenses, if both spouses work. But because of cultural constructs, stability needs to exist before people couple up.
- gregatragenet3 11y ago
  If degrees are worth far less, yet cost far more than in the past - why do people pursue them as if they are mandatory? Intertia? Stigmatization of not having a degree by society/government? I ask in all seriousness, as a large percentage of the most successful (and therefore best compensated) people I work with in tech don't have degrees.
  - Mikeb85 11y ago
    > If degrees are worth far less, yet cost far more than in the past - why do people pursue them as if they are mandatory? A degree is the new high school diploma. It's game theory really. If no one has a degree, it's super valuable, so whoever gets one will have a huge advantage. So everyone gets one because it's the best individual decision. Today, since everyone has one, if you're one of the few that don't, you're at a massive disadvantage. So you still get one for fear of being left behind, even if the relative worth is far less. Tech (rather programming) is kind of an exception because it's easier to show what you're capable of, which allows you to bypass the requirement. There are plenty of trades and 'artistic' fields which allow for this as well. But for most fields, a degree is a sort of 'guarantee' of a minimum level of knowledge, dedication and even financial means. There's no Github for business people.
    - mooreds 11y ago
      > There's no Github for business people. Is that the sound of opportunity knocking?
  - wvenable 11y ago
    Because in a tight job market (which is what we have) they are mandatory. If you have 500 candidates and 250 don't have degrees you can eliminate half the applicants pretty easy. And you don't want to be in the easy-to-eliminate half. The question isn't who you work with now, it's what your HR department puts on new job postings. Do they say degree required?
  - drabiega 11y ago
    Tech is unusual in this regard. Most of the jobs that don't require a degree are either terrible or require luck/connections to get into. Skilled trades are often put forward as an exception, but the people I've known in those sorts of positions usually were able to get into them because of some sort of connection: family, etc. If they were easier to get into their wages would drop.
  - dcole2929 11y ago
    Because most people don't know any better. Millennials have literally spent their entire life time being told that a college degree is the only way to succeed in life. No one mentions what to major in or where to do it at. So they get bad degrees, go into overwhelming debt, and then can't find a job on top of all that. I know that a $50K college degree in UnderWaterBasketWeaving is probably a waste of money but at 18 I sure as hell didn't. And the worst part is that parents buy into and propagate the narrative too, because they don't know any better either. They grew up in a time in which a degree was actually a golden ticket to the middle class. And then there is the fact that in a lot of cases it is mandatory. My mom has been a secretary most of her adult life. Then she became a parelegal because of her overwhelming experience. It has become increasingly hard for her to change jobs as a Middle aged woman because most firms won't even look at someone without a bachelor job for a secretary position. Much less the better paying parelegal job she's become accustomed to. A 20 year old kid just trying to get that entry level position now has to compete not only with people like my mom with more years experience than he's been alive, but also with degree holding individuals.
- maxerickson 11y ago
  Why does college take so long? I didn't do anything special and got out in 4.
  - Mikeb85 11y ago
    Well, in Canada, 'college' means a 2 year technical diploma, and is basically worthless unless you are studying to be a mechanic or a secretary. 3 year university degrees exist, but only in general studies or a few very soft subjects. The 'typical' degree which is called a 4-year degree, means you need to take the maximum course load every semester for 4 years. With scheduling, workloads, internships, etc..., it's very rare for anyone to complete it in 4 years in most fields (engineering, business, most sciences, etc...) these days. It's possible, but the vast majority take longer. If you change majors even once, good luck. Anyhow, not sure exactly how the system works in the US. Maybe the system is efficient enough that graduating in 4 years is still a possibility? Maybe less people work because the cost is so high, whereas in Canada more students have jobs?
    - douche 11y ago
      In the US, 4 years is what you shoot for for a BA or BS. If you really wear yourself out and overload, you might be able to do it in three, three and a half, but scheduling usually doesn't allow that - between pre-requisites, course limits, course availability, etc. If you've got any kind of hiccup along the way, like failing a class, not getting into courses you need, switching majors, taking a non-off term internship, health issues, etc, you're looking at five years. With the catastrophic cost of a university education, people really have no choice but to take on debt to get a degree - even if you were working full-time, year-round, the wages you'd get as a high school graduate in some shit job don't even cover state-school tuition, let alone a private college, not to mention books, food, a place to live, etc. My dad made about $5k working over the summer in the 70s when he was in college, and I also made about $5k working when I could when I was in college in the 2000s. The difference is, that paid his whole year of school and living expenses, rather than half of one semester of tuition.
    - mapt 11y ago
      In the US: * Changing majors * Transferring from a community college to a university * Failing or withdrawing from courses, especially ones not offered every semester * Trying to balance coursework with a work schedule or childcare Can all delay you a year or two, perhaps more in combination. I observed a complete paradigm shift between: * The students who went straight from high school and into college; Lived in dorms, high representation in humanities programs, who were showing up to the 13th/14th grade with no real responsibilities and enough money to do as they like & find a thing they were interested in. They had a wide variety of grades (many failed, some did very well), but usually a relaxed attitude about risks and leisure time. * The commuters, "nontraditional" students, & community college students/transfers, for whom many of the above were frequently true, and who were usually career-oriented. They tended to struggle for the B grade. * The STEM upperclassmen & grad students, who had successfully defeated or overcome these hazards by becoming workaholics who dropped everything else in their life to finish in 4 years with high marks & internships. They rarely retained any social life, and were often academia-oriented.
xemdetia 11y ago
I think this betrays the severity of the issue there. There are plenty of people making ad-hoc roommate arrangements to deal with sharing resources/reducing expenses, but instead of pairs it's threes or more. It's not like being a two-person arrangement reduces expenses by such a magical amount that now the old model of finances works. The amount of people I am seeing being a married couple with a live-in tenant is pretty high, and they are still renting. I feel strongly that it is generally even more risky nowadays to be in a two-person fixed relationship before you have achieved some sort of stability. A single person can couch surf/live in their car/effectively be homeless and still get back on their feet. It has taken me til 30 to feel like I had gotten to a place where if my partner took a fall at work I could cover both parties modest expenses among student loans and other debt, even though I am not holding any extraneousness debt aside from student loans. A pooled income of two working and healthy people is still insufficient to mitigate enough risk before they can weather multiple setbacks and still pay student loans and start to form a family. What is the median income? $53,891 (http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/20/news/economy/median-income/ http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/20/news/economy/median-income/)? Even ballpark estimates makes me feel just as safe trying to make do with half that than with that.
- throwaway13337 11y ago
  It's important to note that the number you mention for median income for _households_ which is pretty inaccurate especially for what you describe. People sharing the same living space are counted as in the same household and more people tend to live in the same household when things go bad. Much lower is personal income. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_...
AlexWest 11y ago
Do you have any idea how much a marriage costs?
- bmelton 11y ago
  Not to be too witty, but mine cost approximately fifty dollars, which amounted to the costs of the permit ($20) and time with the justice of the peace ($30).
knz 11y ago
Until the kids come along and you live in a country where the cost of childcare/healthcare is rapidly rising, and many have no form of paid parental leave, paid sick leave, paid vacation, and/or work for companies that demand a rigid schedule.
danjoc 11y ago
>I'd add to this that millennials are getting married later than any previous generation People deep in debt don't usually attract a lot of mates.

I'd add to this that millennials are getting married later than any previous generation, and marriage allows one to share resources with a partner and therefore reduce expenses.

Mikeb85 11y ago

And we're getting married later because 'adulthood' starts later. It used to be the case that you could support a family with a job you get at 18. If you did go to university, it was easy to pay for and generally not too hard to graduate in 4 years. A bachelor's degree was valuable. Today, good luck graduating in 4 years. Not to mention, a bachelor's degree is worth far less, graduate degrees or dual degrees are the thing now. By the time you go through university (5-8 years), work your (probably unpaid) internship, and get a job that gives you so much as a hope of a decent, middle class life, you're probably 25-28 years old. And unless you found your future spouse in university, then there's at least a year of dating, a year or two of engagement (since wedding venues are damn near impossible to find), and you're getting married at 30+. Anyhow of course that's above the average, plenty get married young, but then again, plenty are poor too. Poor people can get married younger by skipping the whole university thing, but then that does diminish their income potential for their lives. This is what I did, then went to university. Now I'm still 30+, albeit married, but no kids yet. Anyhow, the point is, marriage generally comes as a result of financial stability, not the other way around, though you're right that it does reduce expenses, if both spouses work. But because of cultural constructs, stability needs to exist before people couple up.

gregatragenet3 11y ago
If degrees are worth far less, yet cost far more than in the past - why do people pursue them as if they are mandatory? Intertia? Stigmatization of not having a degree by society/government? I ask in all seriousness, as a large percentage of the most successful (and therefore best compensated) people I work with in tech don't have degrees.
- Mikeb85 11y ago
  > If degrees are worth far less, yet cost far more than in the past - why do people pursue them as if they are mandatory? A degree is the new high school diploma. It's game theory really. If no one has a degree, it's super valuable, so whoever gets one will have a huge advantage. So everyone gets one because it's the best individual decision. Today, since everyone has one, if you're one of the few that don't, you're at a massive disadvantage. So you still get one for fear of being left behind, even if the relative worth is far less. Tech (rather programming) is kind of an exception because it's easier to show what you're capable of, which allows you to bypass the requirement. There are plenty of trades and 'artistic' fields which allow for this as well. But for most fields, a degree is a sort of 'guarantee' of a minimum level of knowledge, dedication and even financial means. There's no Github for business people.
  - mooreds 11y ago
    > There's no Github for business people. Is that the sound of opportunity knocking?
- wvenable 11y ago
  Because in a tight job market (which is what we have) they are mandatory. If you have 500 candidates and 250 don't have degrees you can eliminate half the applicants pretty easy. And you don't want to be in the easy-to-eliminate half. The question isn't who you work with now, it's what your HR department puts on new job postings. Do they say degree required?
- drabiega 11y ago
  Tech is unusual in this regard. Most of the jobs that don't require a degree are either terrible or require luck/connections to get into. Skilled trades are often put forward as an exception, but the people I've known in those sorts of positions usually were able to get into them because of some sort of connection: family, etc. If they were easier to get into their wages would drop.
- dcole2929 11y ago
  Because most people don't know any better. Millennials have literally spent their entire life time being told that a college degree is the only way to succeed in life. No one mentions what to major in or where to do it at. So they get bad degrees, go into overwhelming debt, and then can't find a job on top of all that. I know that a $50K college degree in UnderWaterBasketWeaving is probably a waste of money but at 18 I sure as hell didn't. And the worst part is that parents buy into and propagate the narrative too, because they don't know any better either. They grew up in a time in which a degree was actually a golden ticket to the middle class. And then there is the fact that in a lot of cases it is mandatory. My mom has been a secretary most of her adult life. Then she became a parelegal because of her overwhelming experience. It has become increasingly hard for her to change jobs as a Middle aged woman because most firms won't even look at someone without a bachelor job for a secretary position. Much less the better paying parelegal job she's become accustomed to. A 20 year old kid just trying to get that entry level position now has to compete not only with people like my mom with more years experience than he's been alive, but also with degree holding individuals.
maxerickson 11y ago
Why does college take so long? I didn't do anything special and got out in 4.
- Mikeb85 11y ago
  Well, in Canada, 'college' means a 2 year technical diploma, and is basically worthless unless you are studying to be a mechanic or a secretary. 3 year university degrees exist, but only in general studies or a few very soft subjects. The 'typical' degree which is called a 4-year degree, means you need to take the maximum course load every semester for 4 years. With scheduling, workloads, internships, etc..., it's very rare for anyone to complete it in 4 years in most fields (engineering, business, most sciences, etc...) these days. It's possible, but the vast majority take longer. If you change majors even once, good luck. Anyhow, not sure exactly how the system works in the US. Maybe the system is efficient enough that graduating in 4 years is still a possibility? Maybe less people work because the cost is so high, whereas in Canada more students have jobs?
  - douche 11y ago
    In the US, 4 years is what you shoot for for a BA or BS. If you really wear yourself out and overload, you might be able to do it in three, three and a half, but scheduling usually doesn't allow that - between pre-requisites, course limits, course availability, etc. If you've got any kind of hiccup along the way, like failing a class, not getting into courses you need, switching majors, taking a non-off term internship, health issues, etc, you're looking at five years. With the catastrophic cost of a university education, people really have no choice but to take on debt to get a degree - even if you were working full-time, year-round, the wages you'd get as a high school graduate in some shit job don't even cover state-school tuition, let alone a private college, not to mention books, food, a place to live, etc. My dad made about $5k working over the summer in the 70s when he was in college, and I also made about $5k working when I could when I was in college in the 2000s. The difference is, that paid his whole year of school and living expenses, rather than half of one semester of tuition.
  - mapt 11y ago
    In the US: * Changing majors * Transferring from a community college to a university * Failing or withdrawing from courses, especially ones not offered every semester * Trying to balance coursework with a work schedule or childcare Can all delay you a year or two, perhaps more in combination. I observed a complete paradigm shift between: * The students who went straight from high school and into college; Lived in dorms, high representation in humanities programs, who were showing up to the 13th/14th grade with no real responsibilities and enough money to do as they like & find a thing they were interested in. They had a wide variety of grades (many failed, some did very well), but usually a relaxed attitude about risks and leisure time. * The commuters, "nontraditional" students, & community college students/transfers, for whom many of the above were frequently true, and who were usually career-oriented. They tended to struggle for the B grade. * The STEM upperclassmen & grad students, who had successfully defeated or overcome these hazards by becoming workaholics who dropped everything else in their life to finish in 4 years with high marks & internships. They rarely retained any social life, and were often academia-oriented.

xemdetia 11y ago

I think this betrays the severity of the issue there. There are plenty of people making ad-hoc roommate arrangements to deal with sharing resources/reducing expenses, but instead of pairs it's threes or more. It's not like being a two-person arrangement reduces expenses by such a magical amount that now the old model of finances works. The amount of people I am seeing being a married couple with a live-in tenant is pretty high, and they are still renting. I feel strongly that it is generally even more risky nowadays to be in a two-person fixed relationship before you have achieved some sort of stability. A single person can couch surf/live in their car/effectively be homeless and still get back on their feet. It has taken me til 30 to feel like I had gotten to a place where if my partner took a fall at work I could cover both parties modest expenses among student loans and other debt, even though I am not holding any extraneousness debt aside from student loans. A pooled income of two working and healthy people is still insufficient to mitigate enough risk before they can weather multiple setbacks and still pay student loans and start to form a family. What is the median income? $53,891 (http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/20/news/economy/median-income/ http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/20/news/economy/median-income/)? Even ballpark estimates makes me feel just as safe trying to make do with half that than with that.

throwaway13337 11y ago
It's important to note that the number you mention for median income for _households_ which is pretty inaccurate especially for what you describe. People sharing the same living space are counted as in the same household and more people tend to live in the same household when things go bad. Much lower is personal income. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_...

AlexWest 11y ago

Do you have any idea how much a marriage costs?

bmelton 11y ago
Not to be too witty, but mine cost approximately fifty dollars, which amounted to the costs of the permit ($20) and time with the justice of the peace ($30).

knz 11y ago

Until the kids come along and you live in a country where the cost of childcare/healthcare is rapidly rising, and many have no form of paid parental leave, paid sick leave, paid vacation, and/or work for companies that demand a rigid schedule.

danjoc 11y ago

>I'd add to this that millennials are getting married later than any previous generation People deep in debt don't usually attract a lot of mates.