5 ms·

This is a great idea. Cutting people off from democratic representation is historically an effective way to reduce violence and insurrection.

rogersmith 11y ago
On the plus side, it sets a nice precedent for governments to ban any party whose opinions they don't like. It's entirely unlikely that the anti-EU sentiment that fuels the rise of remarketed right-wing parties all over Europe will persist much longer.
- hackuser 11y ago
  > it sets a nice precedent for governments to ban any party whose opinions they don't like. If so, this precedent has existed for many decades in Germany, which has had this law in place and banned two other parties for the same reason over that time. It hasn't led to the slipperly slope you fear, in Germany or elsewhere. I think people understand that Nazis in Germany are a special circumstance.
  - rogersmith 11y ago
    As the second part of my comment pointed out, I see this being used to also outlaw parties becoming too overtly anti-EU (which in case you didnt notice, is conveniently conflated with "populist right wing parties" a la UKIP, FN usw). As the economic and social situation deteriorates, I see anti-EU sentiment becoming waaaaaaaaay more prevalent than it has been during the 70 years post WW2 period you're on about.
    - Mithaldu 11y ago
      You're conflating UK politics with german politics, and well, we just don't work that way.
    - hackuser 11y ago
      > I see this being used to also outlaw parties becoming too overtly anti-EU This is hard to understand. The party in power in the UK, the Conservatives, are overtly anti-EU and have called a nationwide referendum on leaving the EU. I don't see anyone talking about banning them or the many leading public figures are coming out for Brexit. > in case you didnt notice, is conveniently conflated with "populist right wing parties" a la UKIP, FN usw No, it's may others too, as I pointed out above. The parties you mention are actually populist, right-wing, and often racist and xenophobic nationalists. > I see ... I see ... To be clear, those are one person's predictions; nothing like it has happened. If any group is at risk of oppression, it's the Muslims and other minorities against whom many of the parties you list openly advocate discrimination.
      - parenthephobia 11y ago
        > The party in power in the UK, the Conservatives, are overtly anti-EU and have called a nationwide referendum on leaving the EU. I don't see anyone talking about banning them or the many leading public figures are coming out for Brexit. It's a little more complicated than that. The Conservative party is officially in favour of the EU, although not all of its members are. Whilst it has allowed party members to campaign for leaving the EU, it hasn't allowed them to use parliamentary resources to fund or support their campaign. "Anti-EU" is also a vague term. There's a difference between "we don't mind the EU existing but don't want to be a member" - a typical UK Euro-sceptic view - and "the EU is great in principal but maybe it needs more skulls on its uniform" - a typical neo-Nazi view. Whilst nobody is suggesting banning people who campaign for "brexit" - it would be odd considering we're having a referendum on it - it's worth noting that the UK has not, in living memory, attempted to subjugate all of Europe under its ruthless mass-murdering rule. Given their past, German sensibilities may not be as receptive to the idea of wanting to change Germany's position in Europe, and parties which adopt policies of that ilk may be viewed with deep suspicion.
        hackuser 11y ago
        Thanks for filling in some of the details. I know it's more complex than what I wrote, but I'm not paid by the word here. :) > it's worth noting that the UK has not, in living memory, attempted to subjugate all of Europe under its ruthless mass-murdering rule I agree with this point but would like to add a tangential one: The UK didn't do that in Europe, but they did it many other places around the world, as did other world powers. Why is murderous oppression acceptable in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe but not in Poland or England?
- vixen99 11y ago
  I cannot imagine why you should say this. I'd say the reverse is true. http://www.reuters.com/video/2016/02/16/europe-sentiment-at-a-crossroads?videoId=367419743 http://www.reuters.com/video/2016/02/16/europe-sentiment-at-... http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-anti-eu-europe-20140502-story.html http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-anti-eu-europe-201... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Europeanism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Europeanism http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/swinging-right-left-anti-eu-sentiment-sweeps-europes-parliamentary-elections/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/swinging-right-left-anti-eu-s...
Mithaldu 11y ago
This is an attempt only, has been attempted and failed before. And whatever outcome it will have this time, it can be trusted to be just and reasoned, since this case is being held in front of the one court that has historically been responsible mainly for destroying idiotic proposals from german amateur politicians in the pursuit of protecting the german constitution. If this court agrees, then the NPD was in fact a danger to the constitution. Keep in mind that while many people may have read about this kind of history in books, germans have lived it.
- Tomte 11y ago
  Yes, the more you hear about the proceedings the more it becomes clear that the entire endeavour is doomed. Except for... the "trial strategy" of the NPD's lawyer which seems to be inspired by Hans Reiser.
Tomte 11y ago
As I'm always saying in those threads: that whole notion that neonazism is an issue of its own, meriting special treatment, and that democracy must be fortified (please don't look up militant democracy on Wikipedia, both the lemma and the article's content have obviously been written by people who don't know what they're talking about) is something that the United States demanded and forced upon us after WW2. surprisingly, America never seems to export its own political system and mechanisms when nation-building. I've always found that quite odd.

rogersmith 11y ago

On the plus side, it sets a nice precedent for governments to ban any party whose opinions they don't like. It's entirely unlikely that the anti-EU sentiment that fuels the rise of remarketed right-wing parties all over Europe will persist much longer.

hackuser 11y ago
> it sets a nice precedent for governments to ban any party whose opinions they don't like. If so, this precedent has existed for many decades in Germany, which has had this law in place and banned two other parties for the same reason over that time. It hasn't led to the slipperly slope you fear, in Germany or elsewhere. I think people understand that Nazis in Germany are a special circumstance.
- rogersmith 11y ago
  As the second part of my comment pointed out, I see this being used to also outlaw parties becoming too overtly anti-EU (which in case you didnt notice, is conveniently conflated with "populist right wing parties" a la UKIP, FN usw). As the economic and social situation deteriorates, I see anti-EU sentiment becoming waaaaaaaaay more prevalent than it has been during the 70 years post WW2 period you're on about.
  - Mithaldu 11y ago
    You're conflating UK politics with german politics, and well, we just don't work that way.
  - hackuser 11y ago
    > I see this being used to also outlaw parties becoming too overtly anti-EU This is hard to understand. The party in power in the UK, the Conservatives, are overtly anti-EU and have called a nationwide referendum on leaving the EU. I don't see anyone talking about banning them or the many leading public figures are coming out for Brexit. > in case you didnt notice, is conveniently conflated with "populist right wing parties" a la UKIP, FN usw No, it's may others too, as I pointed out above. The parties you mention are actually populist, right-wing, and often racist and xenophobic nationalists. > I see ... I see ... To be clear, those are one person's predictions; nothing like it has happened. If any group is at risk of oppression, it's the Muslims and other minorities against whom many of the parties you list openly advocate discrimination.
    - parenthephobia 11y ago
      > The party in power in the UK, the Conservatives, are overtly anti-EU and have called a nationwide referendum on leaving the EU. I don't see anyone talking about banning them or the many leading public figures are coming out for Brexit. It's a little more complicated than that. The Conservative party is officially in favour of the EU, although not all of its members are. Whilst it has allowed party members to campaign for leaving the EU, it hasn't allowed them to use parliamentary resources to fund or support their campaign. "Anti-EU" is also a vague term. There's a difference between "we don't mind the EU existing but don't want to be a member" - a typical UK Euro-sceptic view - and "the EU is great in principal but maybe it needs more skulls on its uniform" - a typical neo-Nazi view. Whilst nobody is suggesting banning people who campaign for "brexit" - it would be odd considering we're having a referendum on it - it's worth noting that the UK has not, in living memory, attempted to subjugate all of Europe under its ruthless mass-murdering rule. Given their past, German sensibilities may not be as receptive to the idea of wanting to change Germany's position in Europe, and parties which adopt policies of that ilk may be viewed with deep suspicion.
      - hackuser 11y ago
        Thanks for filling in some of the details. I know it's more complex than what I wrote, but I'm not paid by the word here. :) > it's worth noting that the UK has not, in living memory, attempted to subjugate all of Europe under its ruthless mass-murdering rule I agree with this point but would like to add a tangential one: The UK didn't do that in Europe, but they did it many other places around the world, as did other world powers. Why is murderous oppression acceptable in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe but not in Poland or England?
vixen99 11y ago
I cannot imagine why you should say this. I'd say the reverse is true. http://www.reuters.com/video/2016/02/16/europe-sentiment-at-a-crossroads?videoId=367419743 http://www.reuters.com/video/2016/02/16/europe-sentiment-at-... http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-anti-eu-europe-20140502-story.html http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-anti-eu-europe-201... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Europeanism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Europeanism http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/swinging-right-left-anti-eu-sentiment-sweeps-europes-parliamentary-elections/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/swinging-right-left-anti-eu-s...

Mithaldu 11y ago

This is an attempt only, has been attempted and failed before. And whatever outcome it will have this time, it can be trusted to be just and reasoned, since this case is being held in front of the one court that has historically been responsible mainly for destroying idiotic proposals from german amateur politicians in the pursuit of protecting the german constitution. If this court agrees, then the NPD was in fact a danger to the constitution. Keep in mind that while many people may have read about this kind of history in books, germans have lived it.

Tomte 11y ago
Yes, the more you hear about the proceedings the more it becomes clear that the entire endeavour is doomed. Except for... the "trial strategy" of the NPD's lawyer which seems to be inspired by Hans Reiser.

Tomte 11y ago

As I'm always saying in those threads: that whole notion that neonazism is an issue of its own, meriting special treatment, and that democracy must be fortified (please don't look up militant democracy on Wikipedia, both the lemma and the article's content have obviously been written by people who don't know what they're talking about) is something that the United States demanded and forced upon us after WW2. surprisingly, America never seems to export its own political system and mechanisms when nation-building. I've always found that quite odd.