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For fairly simple configuration tasks IMO visual programming is a powerful tool for non-programmer end users to actually create programs which are not prone to

by fsloth 11y ago

For fairly simple configuration tasks IMO visual programming is a powerful tool for non-programmer end users to actually create programs which are not prone to syntax errors, misguided loop conditions or such. It also means one does not need to learn yet another syntax. True, the application domains are limited, but for example the common node based computational graph generation done for example in Blender and other visual software works quite well. It's not meant for professional programming, it's about empowering the end user with programmable tools.

TuringTest 11y ago
Visual programming excels at data wrangling (parsing structured data in an input/output pipeline that spits the same filtered data in a new format and structure). You're right that until now its usage has been limited to domain-specific languages for automating applications. But with the emergence of functional programming in the mainstream and visual tools that follow that paradigm, I predict that soon there will be visual tools that allow quite general programming. (I've already seen working prototypes, and they deliver on most of the promises).
hacker_9 11y ago
But at what point does simple become complex? It's all well and good saying only use it for simple tasks, but when real life complexity comes knocking, you end up with this sort of magic [1] that is far worse than any C++ I've seen in the wild. [1] http://scriptsofanotherdimension.tumblr.com http://scriptsofanotherdimension.tumblr.com
- TuringTest 11y ago
  People interested in VP really, really should learn about DRAKON[1], the Russian style guide for structured dataflows. I've used it for real projects and it actually solves the spaghetti problem. Compare this:[2] with this:[3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRAKON https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRAKON [2] http://scriptsofanotherdimension.tumblr.com/image/138697246606 http://scriptsofanotherdimension.tumblr.com/image/1386972466... [3] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Dutch_cryo_Moscow.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Dutch_cr...
  - fsloth 11y ago
    A drakon node does not seem to support multiple input values? That's why these visual graphs get convoluted. Compute nodes deal with multiple input and output connections.
    - TuringTest 11y ago
      Good call. Drakon is for control flow specification, not data flow specification. However having a standard for splitting subsystems in separate modules and laying out components using regular rules would benefit any kind of visual graph.

by fsloth 11y ago

TuringTest 11y ago

Visual programming excels at data wrangling (parsing structured data in an input/output pipeline that spits the same filtered data in a new format and structure). You're right that until now its usage has been limited to domain-specific languages for automating applications. But with the emergence of functional programming in the mainstream and visual tools that follow that paradigm, I predict that soon there will be visual tools that allow quite general programming. (I've already seen working prototypes, and they deliver on most of the promises).

hacker_9 11y ago

But at what point does simple become complex? It's all well and good saying only use it for simple tasks, but when real life complexity comes knocking, you end up with this sort of magic [1] that is far worse than any C++ I've seen in the wild. [1] http://scriptsofanotherdimension.tumblr.com http://scriptsofanotherdimension.tumblr.com

TuringTest 11y ago
People interested in VP really, really should learn about DRAKON[1], the Russian style guide for structured dataflows. I've used it for real projects and it actually solves the spaghetti problem. Compare this:[2] with this:[3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRAKON https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRAKON [2] http://scriptsofanotherdimension.tumblr.com/image/138697246606 http://scriptsofanotherdimension.tumblr.com/image/1386972466... [3] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Dutch_cryo_Moscow.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Dutch_cr...
- fsloth 11y ago
  A drakon node does not seem to support multiple input values? That's why these visual graphs get convoluted. Compute nodes deal with multiple input and output connections.
  - TuringTest 11y ago
    Good call. Drakon is for control flow specification, not data flow specification. However having a standard for splitting subsystems in separate modules and laying out components using regular rules would benefit any kind of visual graph.