4 ms·

> Imagine the absurdity if the manufacturer of a car (motor vehicle) could dictate the terms at which their cars were sold by all retailers. The problem is, he

by acqq 11y ago

> Imagine the absurdity if the manufacturer of a car (motor vehicle) could dictate the terms at which their cars were sold by all retailers. The problem is, here it is claimed that the term in Apple's contracts that guaranteed Apple the lowest retail price was the "dictate" as you say, here's from the summary of the decision to which other pointed here: ""the use of a unique "most favored nation" (MFN) clause. Under the DOJ's reading of the Seventh Circuit's Toys "R" Us decision, the DOJ argued that this was a per se violation of Section 1 of the Sherman Act." That reading is certainly disputable, especially knowing the context: the MFN gave Apple right to sell at the lowest price on the market, and the claim was also that MFN was a pressure because Apple demanded 30% from the retail price and that was somehow bad. But that's the same percentage they took in the apps store before. I understand it was decided as it was decided, but I still claim it didn't have to be so.

Pyxl101 11y ago
The point is not about what percentage they take. The point was their active involvement to coordinate all major participants in an entire industry into a cartel that conspired from the beginning to raise price, as the purpose. The participants in this illegal cartel all didn't "like" the market price, and so agreed on a collective mutual action that they believed would (and did) allow them to raise prices. The thing is, conspiring with a competitor to raise prices is illegal.
- acqq 11y ago
  But how was Apple supposed to negotiate their store deals with the publishers? Wasn't it an optimal goal offering all the publishers the deal they'd accept? Such a deal can't be made without discussing the prices. How would you make the store deals in Apple's shoes, given the goal to reach the uniform deal with the publishers, in order to avoid some of them being given "unfavorable" deal? And given that app store worked with 30%? And that publishers actually favored agency model? What would you do differently? If the answer is "not making MFN" then it's what apparently the court decided. But MFN actually guaranteed Apple lowest prices, not the highest. Would you really even think "that Toys R US case is relevant here"?
  - studentrob 11y ago
    Nobody wants to answer those questions because the court ruling did not address it. All the DOJ had to do was demonstrate Apple conspired to raise prices. Nobody needed to think as far ahead as you are now in order to prove the case according to existing law. I think they're great questions, really interesting and forward thinking, and it's too bad you're being downvoted for promoting interesting discussion. The ruling doesn't undo any of the results of what happened, as far as I can tell. I see varying ebook prices on Amazon and I can only imagine that publishers now have the ability to do agency model pricing. All this means is that Apple and others will be really careful about working with content creators or publishers in the future who are stuck with a wholesale model but desire agency-model pricing. And maybe content quality will go down since the creators earn less. Or maybe more people move to independent publishing sooner. I guess it is impossible to know. Ironically, back around 2000, we hailed Jobs for working together with the record labels and convincing them to enter the digital age. Until the iTunes store, nobody was able to convince the labels that mp3s could be a safe way to make money. It wasn't exactly the same situation, but I could see how, from Apple and Jobs' perspective, the effort involved in the ebook situation would've seemed the same and innocent. The difference was, instead of being first to market and able to set prices without oversight, they were second and had to figure out how to compete. They realized they could compete by giving publishers a legit pricing model that they wanted, but didn't realize they could be held liable for price fixing. Another thing I'm wondering about is why the publishers were so insistent that the others must also join. Each told Apple they would only join the plan if a minimum of 4 others did too. I don't follow why that was necessary, since books are published exclusively by one publisher and there wouldn't be any overlap. Anyway, I'm with you. It sounds like the publishers were begging for this circumstance and Apple was caught unaware. The DOJ saw an easy prize on a desirable target based on existing law and they went for it. Ultimately, though, Apple ought to have known better about the risks, and it seems they could have launched this model, albeit slower, without such a concerted effort.
    - Oletros 11y ago
      > I think they're great questions, really interesting and forward thinking, and it's too bad you're being downvoted for promoting interesting discussion. He is downvoted because those questions have nothing to do with the case and are just a smoke curtain to no admit what Apple did. > Another thing I'm wondering about is why the publishers were so insistent that the others must also join. Each told Apple they would only join the plan if a minimum of 4 others did too. Because if a majority of publishers are on board, they can force the OTHER stores threatening to stop selling ebooks though them

by acqq 11y ago

Pyxl101 11y ago

The point is not about what percentage they take. The point was their active involvement to coordinate all major participants in an entire industry into a cartel that conspired from the beginning to raise price, as the purpose. The participants in this illegal cartel all didn't "like" the market price, and so agreed on a collective mutual action that they believed would (and did) allow them to raise prices. The thing is, conspiring with a competitor to raise prices is illegal.

acqq 11y ago
But how was Apple supposed to negotiate their store deals with the publishers? Wasn't it an optimal goal offering all the publishers the deal they'd accept? Such a deal can't be made without discussing the prices. How would you make the store deals in Apple's shoes, given the goal to reach the uniform deal with the publishers, in order to avoid some of them being given "unfavorable" deal? And given that app store worked with 30%? And that publishers actually favored agency model? What would you do differently? If the answer is "not making MFN" then it's what apparently the court decided. But MFN actually guaranteed Apple lowest prices, not the highest. Would you really even think "that Toys R US case is relevant here"?
- studentrob 11y ago
  Nobody wants to answer those questions because the court ruling did not address it. All the DOJ had to do was demonstrate Apple conspired to raise prices. Nobody needed to think as far ahead as you are now in order to prove the case according to existing law. I think they're great questions, really interesting and forward thinking, and it's too bad you're being downvoted for promoting interesting discussion. The ruling doesn't undo any of the results of what happened, as far as I can tell. I see varying ebook prices on Amazon and I can only imagine that publishers now have the ability to do agency model pricing. All this means is that Apple and others will be really careful about working with content creators or publishers in the future who are stuck with a wholesale model but desire agency-model pricing. And maybe content quality will go down since the creators earn less. Or maybe more people move to independent publishing sooner. I guess it is impossible to know. Ironically, back around 2000, we hailed Jobs for working together with the record labels and convincing them to enter the digital age. Until the iTunes store, nobody was able to convince the labels that mp3s could be a safe way to make money. It wasn't exactly the same situation, but I could see how, from Apple and Jobs' perspective, the effort involved in the ebook situation would've seemed the same and innocent. The difference was, instead of being first to market and able to set prices without oversight, they were second and had to figure out how to compete. They realized they could compete by giving publishers a legit pricing model that they wanted, but didn't realize they could be held liable for price fixing. Another thing I'm wondering about is why the publishers were so insistent that the others must also join. Each told Apple they would only join the plan if a minimum of 4 others did too. I don't follow why that was necessary, since books are published exclusively by one publisher and there wouldn't be any overlap. Anyway, I'm with you. It sounds like the publishers were begging for this circumstance and Apple was caught unaware. The DOJ saw an easy prize on a desirable target based on existing law and they went for it. Ultimately, though, Apple ought to have known better about the risks, and it seems they could have launched this model, albeit slower, without such a concerted effort.
  - Oletros 11y ago
    > I think they're great questions, really interesting and forward thinking, and it's too bad you're being downvoted for promoting interesting discussion. He is downvoted because those questions have nothing to do with the case and are just a smoke curtain to no admit what Apple did. > Another thing I'm wondering about is why the publishers were so insistent that the others must also join. Each told Apple they would only join the plan if a minimum of 4 others did too. Because if a majority of publishers are on board, they can force the OTHER stores threatening to stop selling ebooks though them