6 ms·

Ask HN: I want to learn a low-level, compiled language. What should I chose?

14 points by Jmoir 11y ago

My background is mainly in Python and Java. I am currently considering C, Go or Rust. Which should I go with and why? Thanks.

tim333 11y ago
Depends a bit what you want out of it. C for fundamentals, Go for fast web serving, Rust for stuff that's memory safe?
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago
  C++ for fundamentals plus RAII?
- Jmoir 11y ago
  Honestly, I have no projects or specific uses for these languages. Rather, I am treating it as a tool for learning and to experience low level programming. I might make some kind of machine learning application in it later down the line though.
  - tim333 11y ago
    The usual recommendation "for learning and to experience low level programming" would be C. See this for example http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/CollegeAdvice.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/CollegeAdvice.html although that was written before Go and Rust. Also if you're mucking about with machine learning a lot of the libraries seem to be in C or C++. I played about a bit with computer vision using Python but sometimes the Python bindings don't work or don't exist and I was thinking it would be easier to just call the things from the C/C++ they are written in.
    - kibwen 11y ago
      We're actually growing a rather nice machine learning ecosystem on the Rust side, though obviously it's much less mature than the C/C++ solutions. See https://github.com/autumnai/leaf/blob/063ce978004b8bf4b7fc7481fdd58fed0515cfd8/RELEASE.md https://github.com/autumnai/leaf/blob/063ce978004b8bf4b7fc74... for an example.
  - Retra 11y ago
    In that case, I would recommend Rust because it's just harder to learn than the other options.
stray 11y ago
Why not step off the beaten path and try a language that is safer than Rust, has a better concurrency story than Go, performance similar to C (but without as many ways to shoot yourself in the foot)? Ada.
- kibwen 11y ago
  Ada doesn't have Rust's concurrency-safety guarantees, and if you're using dynamic allocation then Ada requires a garbage collector to maintain memory safety whereas Rust doesn't.
  - zerr 11y ago
    Overall, I got an impression that Ada encourages value-based programming. It is possible to do a lot of things without dynamically allocating a memory.
dman 11y ago
Pick C or C++. There is a huge amount of code out there in these languages and learning one of them will open the door to you being able to benefit / learn from it.
kristianp 11y ago
C and Go are quite small languages. I love C for its history and low-level view of the machine. It's worthwhile learning C I think, as a way to understand part of the history of programming. However it makes it time consuming to program even simple things. Go is more productive, with maps, strings and a garbage collector. C++ and Rust are both relatively complex. If you have aspirations to working on large native projects, then C++ might be the way, with Rust becoming more prevalent in the future.
- Tiksi 11y ago
  While I'm a fan of Go, I don't see it as a low level language. I suppose in terms of language features you could argue that simple/small is low level, but from a machine point of view, I feel like anything that doesn't let you manage memory manually can't really be considered low level. I'd probably throw my vote at C for a low level language. Even if you never actually write anything in C, being able to understand the massive amount of code out there in C is a definite plus, and it gives you a good understanding of what's happening at the machine level and underneath the abstraction of other languages.
jtchang 11y ago
Learn C. Specifically learn pointers and memory management. Just these two concepts will give you a huge understanding of any other language.
kibwen 11y ago
Rust makes a fantastic first systems language, due to the fact that the compiler guides you in learning correct low-level memory management and prevents things that would just cause your C program to crash unhelpfully. If you don't need a language that's as low-level as possible, then Go is also a good language to learn. It doesn't have much to teach in the way of memory management, but it does have pointers.
woolybully 11y ago
C because, a) every language we're currently using is a reaction to C (or a reaction to a reaction to C, etc.), and b) it is still going strong in areas such as Linux development, and is enjoying a huge resurgence in areas such as Arduino.
- hanniabu 11y ago
  You're saying people are moving away from C++ to C for the Arduino? What's your guess for reason of the resurgence?
drallison 11y ago
I'd recommend learning assembly language using a macro assembler. Getting up close and personal with actual hardware without a particular programming model being interposed will give you an appreciation for the conceptual and practical support programming languages provide. Writing programs that run on bare metal and programs that run with operating system support is an educational experience of the first order. Just writing a program that bootstraps itself is a right of passage.
kele 11y ago
When I started learning low level programming, I've studied C and x86 assembly simultaneously. This gave me a somewhat broader perspective. From my experience with learning Rust, it might be a little hard to grasp both "the low level world" and Rust-specific things at once.
ddgflorida 11y ago
Choose C because of the huge amount of source code still out there, plus coding that close to the machine will help you be a better programmer.
SixSigma 11y ago
You don't say why you want to do it. I would really recommend learning to program in assembler. And I think the best way to do that is something like AVR [1] or ARM on an embedded device but X86 is do-able with NASM [2] [3] There's always MIPS via SPIM [4] Learning assembler will give you more than simply swapping one imperative language for another. Python / Java -> C / Go / Rust is really not that large a leap. You will have the basics down in a few evenings. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmel_AVR https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmel_AVR [2] http://www.nasm.us/ http://www.nasm.us/ [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netwide_Assembler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netwide_Assembler [4] http://programmedlessons.org/AssemblyTutorial/ http://programmedlessons.org/AssemblyTutorial/
johan_larson 11y ago
I'm not familiar with Rust, so I can't advise you there. But I have worked with the other two languages. Go is not a great choice, because it's not very low level. You don't allocate and free memory explicitly, and you often work with maps, slices, and channels, which are quite high-level. C is a reasonable choice, since the core of it is fairly simple. I expect that forty years of incremental additions have added quite a bit of cruft though, which you have to be able to see though. There also isn't very much work done in plain C these days. Most people in this space use C++, which is even more complicated. May I ask what you are hoping to do with this skill? If you just want a chance to learn more about how computers work, an artificial assembly language like MMIX may teach you more while avoiding much of the cruft that real languages pick up as they evolve. If you actually want to use this for work, C++ is the way to go, but expect to be a beginner for a long time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMIX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMIX
- brudgers 11y ago
  Are there any workbooks with challenging exercises for MMIX?
  - johan_larson 11y ago
    I haven't used it, but this supplement to Knuth's classic The Art of Computer Programming is bound to be instructive: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0133992314 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0133992314
chmielewski 11y ago
REBOL and/or red-lang.org
JoachimSchipper 11y ago
Aside from everything already said, C integrates very well with Python; understanding C will let you write Python bindings for new libraries and will let you easily rewrite performance-critical chunks of Python in a faster language. For Java, you could learn C++ (via JNI) for the same reasons - but Java is less likely to use C libraries, and going from Java to C++ usually doesn't produce as much of a speedup as going from Python to C.
syllogism 11y ago
Cython
MalcolmDiggs 11y ago
Given your background, I think you'll enjoy C. The standard Python interpreter is written in C, and the Sun JVM runtime is C. So if you learn C, you'll start to understand the building blocks that came together to make those higher-level languages. After you get the fundamentals down, take a look at the source code behind those runtimes, and it'll make you a much stronger programmer in all the languages you know.
tomyncy618 11y ago
test comment, sorry!

14 points by Jmoir 11y ago

My background is mainly in Python and Java. I am currently considering C, Go or Rust. Which should I go with and why? Thanks.

tim333 11y ago

Depends a bit what you want out of it. C for fundamentals, Go for fast web serving, Rust for stuff that's memory safe?

AnimalMuppet 11y ago
C++ for fundamentals plus RAII?
Jmoir 11y ago
Honestly, I have no projects or specific uses for these languages. Rather, I am treating it as a tool for learning and to experience low level programming. I might make some kind of machine learning application in it later down the line though.
- tim333 11y ago
  The usual recommendation "for learning and to experience low level programming" would be C. See this for example http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/CollegeAdvice.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/CollegeAdvice.html although that was written before Go and Rust. Also if you're mucking about with machine learning a lot of the libraries seem to be in C or C++. I played about a bit with computer vision using Python but sometimes the Python bindings don't work or don't exist and I was thinking it would be easier to just call the things from the C/C++ they are written in.
  - kibwen 11y ago
    We're actually growing a rather nice machine learning ecosystem on the Rust side, though obviously it's much less mature than the C/C++ solutions. See https://github.com/autumnai/leaf/blob/063ce978004b8bf4b7fc7481fdd58fed0515cfd8/RELEASE.md https://github.com/autumnai/leaf/blob/063ce978004b8bf4b7fc74... for an example.
- Retra 11y ago
  In that case, I would recommend Rust because it's just harder to learn than the other options.

stray 11y ago

Why not step off the beaten path and try a language that is safer than Rust, has a better concurrency story than Go, performance similar to C (but without as many ways to shoot yourself in the foot)? Ada.

kibwen 11y ago
Ada doesn't have Rust's concurrency-safety guarantees, and if you're using dynamic allocation then Ada requires a garbage collector to maintain memory safety whereas Rust doesn't.
- zerr 11y ago
  Overall, I got an impression that Ada encourages value-based programming. It is possible to do a lot of things without dynamically allocating a memory.

dman 11y ago

Pick C or C++. There is a huge amount of code out there in these languages and learning one of them will open the door to you being able to benefit / learn from it.

kristianp 11y ago

C and Go are quite small languages. I love C for its history and low-level view of the machine. It's worthwhile learning C I think, as a way to understand part of the history of programming. However it makes it time consuming to program even simple things. Go is more productive, with maps, strings and a garbage collector. C++ and Rust are both relatively complex. If you have aspirations to working on large native projects, then C++ might be the way, with Rust becoming more prevalent in the future.

Tiksi 11y ago
While I'm a fan of Go, I don't see it as a low level language. I suppose in terms of language features you could argue that simple/small is low level, but from a machine point of view, I feel like anything that doesn't let you manage memory manually can't really be considered low level. I'd probably throw my vote at C for a low level language. Even if you never actually write anything in C, being able to understand the massive amount of code out there in C is a definite plus, and it gives you a good understanding of what's happening at the machine level and underneath the abstraction of other languages.

jtchang 11y ago

Learn C. Specifically learn pointers and memory management. Just these two concepts will give you a huge understanding of any other language.

kibwen 11y ago

Rust makes a fantastic first systems language, due to the fact that the compiler guides you in learning correct low-level memory management and prevents things that would just cause your C program to crash unhelpfully. If you don't need a language that's as low-level as possible, then Go is also a good language to learn. It doesn't have much to teach in the way of memory management, but it does have pointers.

woolybully 11y ago

C because, a) every language we're currently using is a reaction to C (or a reaction to a reaction to C, etc.), and b) it is still going strong in areas such as Linux development, and is enjoying a huge resurgence in areas such as Arduino.

hanniabu 11y ago
You're saying people are moving away from C++ to C for the Arduino? What's your guess for reason of the resurgence?

drallison 11y ago

I'd recommend learning assembly language using a macro assembler. Getting up close and personal with actual hardware without a particular programming model being interposed will give you an appreciation for the conceptual and practical support programming languages provide. Writing programs that run on bare metal and programs that run with operating system support is an educational experience of the first order. Just writing a program that bootstraps itself is a right of passage.

kele 11y ago

When I started learning low level programming, I've studied C and x86 assembly simultaneously. This gave me a somewhat broader perspective. From my experience with learning Rust, it might be a little hard to grasp both "the low level world" and Rust-specific things at once.

ddgflorida 11y ago

Choose C because of the huge amount of source code still out there, plus coding that close to the machine will help you be a better programmer.

SixSigma 11y ago

You don't say why you want to do it. I would really recommend learning to program in assembler. And I think the best way to do that is something like AVR [1] or ARM on an embedded device but X86 is do-able with NASM [2] [3] There's always MIPS via SPIM [4] Learning assembler will give you more than simply swapping one imperative language for another. Python / Java -> C / Go / Rust is really not that large a leap. You will have the basics down in a few evenings. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmel_AVR https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmel_AVR [2] http://www.nasm.us/ http://www.nasm.us/ [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netwide_Assembler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netwide_Assembler [4] http://programmedlessons.org/AssemblyTutorial/ http://programmedlessons.org/AssemblyTutorial/

johan_larson 11y ago

I'm not familiar with Rust, so I can't advise you there. But I have worked with the other two languages. Go is not a great choice, because it's not very low level. You don't allocate and free memory explicitly, and you often work with maps, slices, and channels, which are quite high-level. C is a reasonable choice, since the core of it is fairly simple. I expect that forty years of incremental additions have added quite a bit of cruft though, which you have to be able to see though. There also isn't very much work done in plain C these days. Most people in this space use C++, which is even more complicated. May I ask what you are hoping to do with this skill? If you just want a chance to learn more about how computers work, an artificial assembly language like MMIX may teach you more while avoiding much of the cruft that real languages pick up as they evolve. If you actually want to use this for work, C++ is the way to go, but expect to be a beginner for a long time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMIX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMIX

brudgers 11y ago
Are there any workbooks with challenging exercises for MMIX?
- johan_larson 11y ago
  I haven't used it, but this supplement to Knuth's classic The Art of Computer Programming is bound to be instructive: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0133992314 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0133992314

chmielewski 11y ago

REBOL and/or red-lang.org

JoachimSchipper 11y ago

Aside from everything already said, C integrates very well with Python; understanding C will let you write Python bindings for new libraries and will let you easily rewrite performance-critical chunks of Python in a faster language. For Java, you could learn C++ (via JNI) for the same reasons - but Java is less likely to use C libraries, and going from Java to C++ usually doesn't produce as much of a speedup as going from Python to C.

syllogism 11y ago

Cython

MalcolmDiggs 11y ago

Given your background, I think you'll enjoy C. The standard Python interpreter is written in C, and the Sun JVM runtime is C. So if you learn C, you'll start to understand the building blocks that came together to make those higher-level languages. After you get the fundamentals down, take a look at the source code behind those runtimes, and it'll make you a much stronger programmer in all the languages you know.

tomyncy618 11y ago

test comment, sorry!