10 ms·

I think all of the things you said I can disagree with on some level: - voting is secret - I think everyone's voting record should be made public! How would t

I think all of the things you said I can disagree with on some level: - voting is secret - I think everyone's voting record should be made public! How would this be a bad thing? - voting is free - the media spend a lot of money cajoling voters down certain paths. Voting isn't free - I mean look at all those poor republicans voting against their own self interest. - voting is equal - your vote should count as the inverse percentage of your age. Young people will be here longer and should have their votes be worth more, old people who only have a few years left disproportionately affect policy. - voters can't currently tell if their vote was counted and in a lot of cases (i.e. Electoral college, jerry mandering) votes are worthless even without direct cheating. - the counting process is open and accessible - this is making the software open and the votes tied to real people. That would completely solve this, especially if it was on some kind of public ledger.

cgriswald 11y ago
> - voting is secret - I think everyone's voting record should be made public! How would this be a bad thing? Because it allows votes to be purchased or coerced. > - voting is equal - your vote should count as the inverse percentage of your age. Young people will be here longer and should have their votes be worth more, old people who only have a few years left disproportionately affect policy. Old people choose to vote. Young people do not. Disenfranchising those voters with the most experience (and one would hope, the most wisdom, but that is not always the case) in favor of those who currently cannot be bothered to vote is absurd. > votes are worthless even without direct cheating. Every time I hear this I think of Zeno's paradox. But in reference to the above, an individual old person's vote is meaningless, yet somehow they are disproportionately affecting policy...
- andy_ppp 11y ago
  > Because it allows votes to be purchased or coerced. Already happens indirectly now right? Or are you saying the person with the most money hasn't always won the US presidential election? > Old people choose to vote. That's fine but I'm suggesting a way to make the young more engaged. I vote but my vote is usually wasted as we don't have proportional representation in the UK. Why should voting power not be held by those with most to loose? The current system is an arbitrary 1 person is worth one vote, why it shouldn't be done on years of remaining life is arbitrary as well. > Every time I hear this I think of Zeno's paradox... Let's look at what I actually said: in a lot of cases (i.e. Electoral college, jerry mandering) votes are worthless This is actually just a fact. If you move boundaries to make safe majorities in areas that were close now my vote that might have changed something is worthless. In first past the post rather than proportional representation your vote is wasted if there is a big majority.
  - cgriswald 11y ago
    > > Because it allows votes to be purchased or coerced. > Already happens indirectly now right? Or are you saying the person with the most money hasn't always won the US presidential election? You're conflating buying influence with buying/coercing votes. These are vastly different. Imagine you live in a factory town and work in the factory. A proposition is put on the ballot to require your employer to dispose of waste properly at great cost. How are you going to vote knowing that your employer and coworkers will be able to see your ballot? Secret ballots are necessary and "presidential elections are determine by money" isn't a counterargument against it. I am also skeptical that the link between campaign money raised and votes received is strictly causative. It seems likely that a popular candidate will receive more donations just as he receives more votes. > That's fine but I'm suggesting a way to make the young more engaged. I vote but my vote is usually wasted as we don't have proportional representation in the UK. Why should voting power not be held by those with most to loose? The current system is an arbitrary 1 person is worth one vote, why it shouldn't be done on years of remaining life is arbitrary as well. Like MTV's RockTheVote which motivated people who could not otherwise be bothered to stay informed to vote? No thanks. Why do you think young people have the most to lose simply because they are statistically more likely to have more remaining years on Earth? What about people who ultimately leave the country? Or who die in car crashes? Why should people with less experience and knowledge have a greater choice in decisions? (That same demographic has already largely decided not to vote, despite being the largest demographic and therefore having the most potential influence.) The idea is absurd. (It used to be land-owning males "who had the most to lose". Disenfranchising others doesn't work.) > This is actually just a fact. If you move boundaries to make safe majorities in areas that were close now my vote that might have changed something is worthless. Corruption is always a threat to a vote. But giving yourself "a better vote" because you feel disenfranchised doesn't solve the problem of gerrymandering, etc. I would say your belief that your vote is unable to effect change (despite most eligible voters not even voting) is more causative than these problems. As for the Electoral College, it's an odd example, since the position of POTUS is elected by the States and not the people. Individual states can choose to use "winner-take-all" or not.
mnw21cam 11y ago
> voting is secret - I think everyone's voting record should be made public! How would this be a bad thing? Unnamed rich hopeful approaches a load of people and tells them (s)he will pay them $AMOUNT if they vote for him/her. If the voting is not secret, then the said rich hopeful can verify who actually voted his/her way, and who to pay. Likewise, a random thug can politely offer to break the legs of someone if they do not vote his/her way. If the voting is secret, it removes the ability to pay someone to vote a particular way, or use threats or coercion.
- andy_ppp 11y ago
  > Unnamed rich hopeful approaches a load of people and tells them (s)he will pay them $AMOUNT if they vote for him/her Isn't that basically the current system? Replace the $AMOUNT with healthcare/tax breaks etc. > Likewise, a random thug can politely offer to break the legs of someone if they do not vote his/her way. Clearly this could already happen - stooges could be used and people could be threatened. The secrecy of votes would not make a difference. If people were hell bent on stealing an election, large scale illegal activity would be easier to spot with a public ledger.
skkeeper 11y ago
> - voting is secret - I think everyone's voting record should be made public! How would this be a bad thing? Speaking as someone who was born and raised in a country that as only known democracy for the last 42 years, making voting not secret is not an option. Maintaining the vote secret protects the electorate.
ajuc 11y ago
> I think everyone's voting record should be made public! How would this be a bad thing? You boss don't like Democrats. After elections he fires everybody who voted them. Especially bad (and probable) when you work in government institutions and you want to vote opposition.

cgriswald 11y ago

> - voting is secret - I think everyone's voting record should be made public! How would this be a bad thing? Because it allows votes to be purchased or coerced. > - voting is equal - your vote should count as the inverse percentage of your age. Young people will be here longer and should have their votes be worth more, old people who only have a few years left disproportionately affect policy. Old people choose to vote. Young people do not. Disenfranchising those voters with the most experience (and one would hope, the most wisdom, but that is not always the case) in favor of those who currently cannot be bothered to vote is absurd. > votes are worthless even without direct cheating. Every time I hear this I think of Zeno's paradox. But in reference to the above, an individual old person's vote is meaningless, yet somehow they are disproportionately affecting policy...

andy_ppp 11y ago
> Because it allows votes to be purchased or coerced. Already happens indirectly now right? Or are you saying the person with the most money hasn't always won the US presidential election? > Old people choose to vote. That's fine but I'm suggesting a way to make the young more engaged. I vote but my vote is usually wasted as we don't have proportional representation in the UK. Why should voting power not be held by those with most to loose? The current system is an arbitrary 1 person is worth one vote, why it shouldn't be done on years of remaining life is arbitrary as well. > Every time I hear this I think of Zeno's paradox... Let's look at what I actually said: in a lot of cases (i.e. Electoral college, jerry mandering) votes are worthless This is actually just a fact. If you move boundaries to make safe majorities in areas that were close now my vote that might have changed something is worthless. In first past the post rather than proportional representation your vote is wasted if there is a big majority.
- cgriswald 11y ago
  > > Because it allows votes to be purchased or coerced. > Already happens indirectly now right? Or are you saying the person with the most money hasn't always won the US presidential election? You're conflating buying influence with buying/coercing votes. These are vastly different. Imagine you live in a factory town and work in the factory. A proposition is put on the ballot to require your employer to dispose of waste properly at great cost. How are you going to vote knowing that your employer and coworkers will be able to see your ballot? Secret ballots are necessary and "presidential elections are determine by money" isn't a counterargument against it. I am also skeptical that the link between campaign money raised and votes received is strictly causative. It seems likely that a popular candidate will receive more donations just as he receives more votes. > That's fine but I'm suggesting a way to make the young more engaged. I vote but my vote is usually wasted as we don't have proportional representation in the UK. Why should voting power not be held by those with most to loose? The current system is an arbitrary 1 person is worth one vote, why it shouldn't be done on years of remaining life is arbitrary as well. Like MTV's RockTheVote which motivated people who could not otherwise be bothered to stay informed to vote? No thanks. Why do you think young people have the most to lose simply because they are statistically more likely to have more remaining years on Earth? What about people who ultimately leave the country? Or who die in car crashes? Why should people with less experience and knowledge have a greater choice in decisions? (That same demographic has already largely decided not to vote, despite being the largest demographic and therefore having the most potential influence.) The idea is absurd. (It used to be land-owning males "who had the most to lose". Disenfranchising others doesn't work.) > This is actually just a fact. If you move boundaries to make safe majorities in areas that were close now my vote that might have changed something is worthless. Corruption is always a threat to a vote. But giving yourself "a better vote" because you feel disenfranchised doesn't solve the problem of gerrymandering, etc. I would say your belief that your vote is unable to effect change (despite most eligible voters not even voting) is more causative than these problems. As for the Electoral College, it's an odd example, since the position of POTUS is elected by the States and not the people. Individual states can choose to use "winner-take-all" or not.

mnw21cam 11y ago

> voting is secret - I think everyone's voting record should be made public! How would this be a bad thing? Unnamed rich hopeful approaches a load of people and tells them (s)he will pay them $AMOUNT if they vote for him/her. If the voting is not secret, then the said rich hopeful can verify who actually voted his/her way, and who to pay. Likewise, a random thug can politely offer to break the legs of someone if they do not vote his/her way. If the voting is secret, it removes the ability to pay someone to vote a particular way, or use threats or coercion.

andy_ppp 11y ago
> Unnamed rich hopeful approaches a load of people and tells them (s)he will pay them $AMOUNT if they vote for him/her Isn't that basically the current system? Replace the $AMOUNT with healthcare/tax breaks etc. > Likewise, a random thug can politely offer to break the legs of someone if they do not vote his/her way. Clearly this could already happen - stooges could be used and people could be threatened. The secrecy of votes would not make a difference. If people were hell bent on stealing an election, large scale illegal activity would be easier to spot with a public ledger.

skkeeper 11y ago

> - voting is secret - I think everyone's voting record should be made public! How would this be a bad thing? Speaking as someone who was born and raised in a country that as only known democracy for the last 42 years, making voting not secret is not an option. Maintaining the vote secret protects the electorate.

ajuc 11y ago

> I think everyone's voting record should be made public! How would this be a bad thing? You boss don't like Democrats. After elections he fires everybody who voted them. Especially bad (and probable) when you work in government institutions and you want to vote opposition.