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And yet all of that falls short of what civilians in war zones suffer. Hence, the idea that the military gets the worst part of war is ridiculous.

notahacker 11y ago
I'm not convinced that being shot, ripped to shreds by shrapnel or tortured after capture is more pleasant if you happen to be wearing a uniform at the time.
- vidarh 11y ago
  The point is that those things happens to you as a solider only because you chose to not take a much simpler way out. The civilians did not have that choice.
  - notahacker 11y ago
    Civilians can often emigrate (or relocate within a country to less risky regions) with at least as much ease as soldiers facing conscription. Their choice not to was typically for very similar reasons as people tend not to dodge drafts.
- Semiapies 11y ago
  If you think that's all there is to it, you probably can't be convinced of anything.
  - notahacker 11y ago
    If you want to convince people, you could try naming a horror of war that conscripts aren't subjected to or at risk of instead of making snarky personal remarks...
    - EdHominem 11y ago
      Of course they face the horrors of war. But they're the ones in a place to do something about it. They have time to plan after getting their notice, they're in a free country where they can buy arms, etc.
      - notahacker 11y ago
        Except of course, for the ones not living in free countries. With the countries doing the most conscription tending to be disproportionately not-free, and/or already suffering from attacks on their civilian population. A civilian population which regardless of how bad things have got has a bit more freedom to leave the country than those [about to be] drafted into the army. And seriously, you're suggesting buying arms is a way for conscripts to avoid the horrors of war? This subthread is like a magnet for untenable arguments.
        EdHominem 11y ago
        > Except of course, for the ones not living in free countries. Gosh, pardon me for talking about the countries on the continent I was born on. > A civilian population which regardless of how bad things have got has a bit more freedom to leave the country than those [about to be] drafted into the army. Historical history fail. American draftees had the ability to cross the borders legally before their reporting date, and the borders were porous and easily crossed anyways. Vietnamese civilians would have had to walk hundreds of miles, crossing mine fields, into even less friendly countries, if they even knew a war was declared before the bomb destroyed their village. > And seriously, you're suggesting [...] No matter how hard the conscript has it, their victims will have it worse. I'm not suggesting, I'm flat-out saying that if you don't take extreme measures to avoid shooting innocents, you're a murderer. When you're drafted it's too late to avoid some horror but you can keep from making it worse for everyone.
        notahacker 11y ago
        So your refutation of the concept that "both military and civilians have it bad" involves the assumption that the United States is the only country, Vietnam was the only war, and people called up to the military can easily avoid the trauma of being shot at and having to take other human lives by.... buying a gun and starting a firefight. That's not the best line of argument I've come across. Although when it comes to Vietnam, I did once chat with an older Vietnamese person in Vietnam who said his worst experience of war was seeing banged up American GIs in the hospital next door. Other Vietnamese civilians' worst experiences were food shortages as the war largely passed their particular inconsequential valley by. Others died agonising deaths under bombardment, which was disproportionately likely and certainly no less painful if they happened to have [been] signed up for one of the armies and sent to guard something. Not all experiences of war are the same, but as a general rule you're going to spend a lot more time being shot at if you're a soldier, and probably don't feel better for shooting back, especially if you're a conscript.

notahacker 11y ago

I'm not convinced that being shot, ripped to shreds by shrapnel or tortured after capture is more pleasant if you happen to be wearing a uniform at the time.

vidarh 11y ago
The point is that those things happens to you as a solider only because you chose to not take a much simpler way out. The civilians did not have that choice.
- notahacker 11y ago
  Civilians can often emigrate (or relocate within a country to less risky regions) with at least as much ease as soldiers facing conscription. Their choice not to was typically for very similar reasons as people tend not to dodge drafts.
Semiapies 11y ago
If you think that's all there is to it, you probably can't be convinced of anything.
- notahacker 11y ago
  If you want to convince people, you could try naming a horror of war that conscripts aren't subjected to or at risk of instead of making snarky personal remarks...
  - EdHominem 11y ago
    Of course they face the horrors of war. But they're the ones in a place to do something about it. They have time to plan after getting their notice, they're in a free country where they can buy arms, etc.
    - notahacker 11y ago
      Except of course, for the ones not living in free countries. With the countries doing the most conscription tending to be disproportionately not-free, and/or already suffering from attacks on their civilian population. A civilian population which regardless of how bad things have got has a bit more freedom to leave the country than those [about to be] drafted into the army. And seriously, you're suggesting buying arms is a way for conscripts to avoid the horrors of war? This subthread is like a magnet for untenable arguments.
      - EdHominem 11y ago
        > Except of course, for the ones not living in free countries. Gosh, pardon me for talking about the countries on the continent I was born on. > A civilian population which regardless of how bad things have got has a bit more freedom to leave the country than those [about to be] drafted into the army. Historical history fail. American draftees had the ability to cross the borders legally before their reporting date, and the borders were porous and easily crossed anyways. Vietnamese civilians would have had to walk hundreds of miles, crossing mine fields, into even less friendly countries, if they even knew a war was declared before the bomb destroyed their village. > And seriously, you're suggesting [...] No matter how hard the conscript has it, their victims will have it worse. I'm not suggesting, I'm flat-out saying that if you don't take extreme measures to avoid shooting innocents, you're a murderer. When you're drafted it's too late to avoid some horror but you can keep from making it worse for everyone.
        notahacker 11y ago
        So your refutation of the concept that "both military and civilians have it bad" involves the assumption that the United States is the only country, Vietnam was the only war, and people called up to the military can easily avoid the trauma of being shot at and having to take other human lives by.... buying a gun and starting a firefight. That's not the best line of argument I've come across. Although when it comes to Vietnam, I did once chat with an older Vietnamese person in Vietnam who said his worst experience of war was seeing banged up American GIs in the hospital next door. Other Vietnamese civilians' worst experiences were food shortages as the war largely passed their particular inconsequential valley by. Others died agonising deaths under bombardment, which was disproportionately likely and certainly no less painful if they happened to have [been] signed up for one of the armies and sent to guard something. Not all experiences of war are the same, but as a general rule you're going to spend a lot more time being shot at if you're a soldier, and probably don't feel better for shooting back, especially if you're a conscript.