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The military always thinks they have the worst of war. Remember all those stories a couple of years back about drone operators being psychologically traumatize

The military always thinks they have the worst of war. Remember all those stories a couple of years back about drone operators being psychologically traumatized by their job? (In between calling children they'd killed "fun-sized terrorists", of course.)

deelowe 11y ago
Can't both sides have it bad? I have family members who were absolutely traumatized by the vietnam war. The whole concept is absolutely terrible.
- EdHominem 11y ago
  Not really. The worst a soldier faced was prison for not participating and if they left the country soon enough - no punishment at all. Anyone unwilling to go to some effort to avoid prosecuting an unjust war can't really be said to be a victim like the people they shoot... If we give them a pass we remove all moral requirement to make sure you're fighting for a just cause.
  - codyb 11y ago
    I'm not really sure if, during a national wartime it's always just so easy for millions of potential soldiers to just pack up and move across the border at once. Otherwise, your option is only for those who are economically, and mentally prepared for such an undertaking. Economically of course including things like important connections. And your other option which I think is jail for draft dodgers isn't exactly fulsome and charming. So the soldier either loses his way of life through exodus, forced incaceration, or being sent to fight.
    - Semiapies 11y ago
      And yet all of that falls short of what civilians in war zones suffer. Hence, the idea that the military gets the worst part of war is ridiculous.
      - notahacker 11y ago
        I'm not convinced that being shot, ripped to shreds by shrapnel or tortured after capture is more pleasant if you happen to be wearing a uniform at the time.
        vidarh 11y ago
        The point is that those things happens to you as a solider only because you chose to not take a much simpler way out. The civilians did not have that choice.
        notahacker 11y ago
        Civilians can often emigrate (or relocate within a country to less risky regions) with at least as much ease as soldiers facing conscription. Their choice not to was typically for very similar reasons as people tend not to dodge drafts.
        Semiapies 11y ago
        If you think that's all there is to it, you probably can't be convinced of anything.
        notahacker 11y ago
        If you want to convince people, you could try naming a horror of war that conscripts aren't subjected to or at risk of instead of making snarky personal remarks...
        EdHominem 11y ago
        Of course they face the horrors of war. But they're the ones in a place to do something about it. They have time to plan after getting their notice, they're in a free country where they can buy arms, etc.
        11y ago
    - EdHominem 11y ago
      > not really sure if, during a national wartime it's always just so easy Yeah, borders are hard to find (they're on the outside of a country?! How inconvenient!) and it would suck to lose your important connections and your facebook account. Not worth it. The murder option is way easier - you should totally just do that. > And your other option which I think is jail Hah! "My option". Yeah, I invented sending soldiers to jail right after I invented the draft. > So the soldier either loses [...] I'm glad you see the draft as the bad thing here. But they can choose not to kill for the people who drafted them.
  - deelowe 11y ago
    Uhh. My father in-law was drafted...
    - EdHominem 11y ago
      I hope he shot a recruiting officer before fleeing to Canada or Mexico.
      - deelowe 11y ago
        I really don't understand where you're going with this argument. My point was that war sucks and we should be laying fault where it's due (not on the civilians or GIs). I'm sure most everyone involved out in the field would rather be somewhere else. I know plenty of ex-military and nearly uniformly, those who have served (and saw action) considered it to be a mistake regardless of whether they were shot at or did the shooting.
        EdHominem 11y ago
        > I really don't understand where you're going with this argument. Then I don't really follow you either. I had thought my response - that while war sucks for everyone, conscripts generally have more chance to avoid the war than the civilians they end up killing and it's their duty to take those options rather than being a murderer - was pretty clear...? And yes, I 100% agree that the people who sign the law are doing the worst thing, and the people who vote for them without being at risk of being drafted themselves, etc. The draft is the bad thing, not the conscripts for being drafted. But, once drafted they still have choice and power, and must use that before victimizing others. > those who have served (and saw action) considered it to be a mistake regardless Exactly, so if they had run away, or done their fighting in their own country against their own draft, they'd have spared everyone that mistake. The only way the mistakes happen is if soldiers go.

deelowe 11y ago

Can't both sides have it bad? I have family members who were absolutely traumatized by the vietnam war. The whole concept is absolutely terrible.

EdHominem 11y ago
Not really. The worst a soldier faced was prison for not participating and if they left the country soon enough - no punishment at all. Anyone unwilling to go to some effort to avoid prosecuting an unjust war can't really be said to be a victim like the people they shoot... If we give them a pass we remove all moral requirement to make sure you're fighting for a just cause.
- codyb 11y ago
  I'm not really sure if, during a national wartime it's always just so easy for millions of potential soldiers to just pack up and move across the border at once. Otherwise, your option is only for those who are economically, and mentally prepared for such an undertaking. Economically of course including things like important connections. And your other option which I think is jail for draft dodgers isn't exactly fulsome and charming. So the soldier either loses his way of life through exodus, forced incaceration, or being sent to fight.
  - Semiapies 11y ago
    And yet all of that falls short of what civilians in war zones suffer. Hence, the idea that the military gets the worst part of war is ridiculous.
    - notahacker 11y ago
      I'm not convinced that being shot, ripped to shreds by shrapnel or tortured after capture is more pleasant if you happen to be wearing a uniform at the time.
      - vidarh 11y ago
        The point is that those things happens to you as a solider only because you chose to not take a much simpler way out. The civilians did not have that choice.
        notahacker 11y ago
        Civilians can often emigrate (or relocate within a country to less risky regions) with at least as much ease as soldiers facing conscription. Their choice not to was typically for very similar reasons as people tend not to dodge drafts.
      - Semiapies 11y ago
        If you think that's all there is to it, you probably can't be convinced of anything.
        notahacker 11y ago
        If you want to convince people, you could try naming a horror of war that conscripts aren't subjected to or at risk of instead of making snarky personal remarks...
        EdHominem 11y ago
        Of course they face the horrors of war. But they're the ones in a place to do something about it. They have time to plan after getting their notice, they're in a free country where they can buy arms, etc.
        11y ago
  - EdHominem 11y ago
    > not really sure if, during a national wartime it's always just so easy Yeah, borders are hard to find (they're on the outside of a country?! How inconvenient!) and it would suck to lose your important connections and your facebook account. Not worth it. The murder option is way easier - you should totally just do that. > And your other option which I think is jail Hah! "My option". Yeah, I invented sending soldiers to jail right after I invented the draft. > So the soldier either loses [...] I'm glad you see the draft as the bad thing here. But they can choose not to kill for the people who drafted them.
- deelowe 11y ago
  Uhh. My father in-law was drafted...
  - EdHominem 11y ago
    I hope he shot a recruiting officer before fleeing to Canada or Mexico.
    - deelowe 11y ago
      I really don't understand where you're going with this argument. My point was that war sucks and we should be laying fault where it's due (not on the civilians or GIs). I'm sure most everyone involved out in the field would rather be somewhere else. I know plenty of ex-military and nearly uniformly, those who have served (and saw action) considered it to be a mistake regardless of whether they were shot at or did the shooting.
      - EdHominem 11y ago
        > I really don't understand where you're going with this argument. Then I don't really follow you either. I had thought my response - that while war sucks for everyone, conscripts generally have more chance to avoid the war than the civilians they end up killing and it's their duty to take those options rather than being a murderer - was pretty clear...? And yes, I 100% agree that the people who sign the law are doing the worst thing, and the people who vote for them without being at risk of being drafted themselves, etc. The draft is the bad thing, not the conscripts for being drafted. But, once drafted they still have choice and power, and must use that before victimizing others. > those who have served (and saw action) considered it to be a mistake regardless Exactly, so if they had run away, or done their fighting in their own country against their own draft, they'd have spared everyone that mistake. The only way the mistakes happen is if soldiers go.