3 ms·

so, what do you think where logic comes from? I'll spare you the effort: > [...] from properly feminine of λογικός ‎(logikós, “of or pertaining to speech or re

by conceit 11y ago

so, what do you think where logic comes from? I'll spare you the effort: > [...] from properly feminine of λογικός ‎(logikós, “of or pertaining to speech or reason or reasoning, rational, reasonable”), from λόγος ‎(lógos, “speech, reason”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/logic https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/logic There is no analogy without logic. I even fail to recognize a difference between speech and logic, speech without logic, by analogy, would be just noise.

thaumasiotes 11y ago
Your extremely ignorant argument immediately implies that the clubs used to hit baseballs are necessarily related to flying mammals. The facts that the english word analogy descends in a complicated manner from a greek word referring to mathematical proprotions, and the english word logic descends in a somewhat less complicated manner from a greek word referring to speech, and that those greek words shared their pronunciation, tell us nothing about the relationship between analogies and logic. A standard chinese term for "analogy" (also, "metaphor") is 比喻 biyu. The term for "logic" is 逻辑 luoji (it is a loan word from english). Are you prepared to grant that, while analogies and logic are necessarily intertwined for people who speak english or greek, they are unrelated for people who speak modern mandarin chinese?
- conceit 11y ago
  The similarity between according to" + "ratio," and “of or pertaining to speech or reason or reasoning, rational, reasonable” is just too simple and striking to be missed and forgotten. No linguistic reasoning is needed however, to see that an analogy essentially needs logic to work in any language. It helps however. EG in English tongue still language in an idiomatic metaphorical sense, analog to the original meaning of logos, tongue, metaphorically referring to speech. My argument is not ignorant, anyway, it's arrogant.
  - thaumasiotes 11y ago
    You are making an argument which includes, but is even dumber than, the etymological fallacy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy ). I stand by "extremely ignorant".
    - conceit 11y ago
      I'm sorry, the initial analogy, that a condom is easy to pierce was just an example for the general assumption, that security is easy if the thread is not purposefully malignant, for varying measures of malignant. Someone who doesn't even understand that and that the linguistic argument is of the table, and still keeps going, shouldn't try to talk about logic, as right as some of the individual arguments might be. Ana-logically, I shouldn't be writing any more about this.
  - bakirtzis 11y ago
    I don't know about the second part of your argument, where you claim you don't need any linguistic reasoning to see that analogy needs logic (I'm personally not convinced). However, your argument about the connection-in the context you are putting it in-of the words logic and analogy is absolutely false. Αναλογία means the comparative association of two (antithetical) objects in quantity, size, etc. Λογική means to reason with a basis in reality.
talles 11y ago
> There is no analogy without logic. I even fail to recognize a difference between speech and logic, speech without logic, by analogy, would be just noise. Sure. That's why sometimes we see such bad analogies, the logic doesn't match so well the actual idea. When the idea you are trying to convey isn't that complicated at all you're probably better off using just pure logic and not complicated constructs such as analogies. As for speech, indeed, there's a deep logic bounding the language structures we use. The problem with language (logic and meaning wise) is that language is relative to the environment and to the speakers of the conversation. You have to figure out the "language game" where the conversation is being held. As for logic, we expect no subjectivity (if there is subjectivity it's bad logic).

by conceit 11y ago

thaumasiotes 11y ago

Your extremely ignorant argument immediately implies that the clubs used to hit baseballs are necessarily related to flying mammals. The facts that the english word analogy descends in a complicated manner from a greek word referring to mathematical proprotions, and the english word logic descends in a somewhat less complicated manner from a greek word referring to speech, and that those greek words shared their pronunciation, tell us nothing about the relationship between analogies and logic. A standard chinese term for "analogy" (also, "metaphor") is 比喻 biyu. The term for "logic" is 逻辑 luoji (it is a loan word from english). Are you prepared to grant that, while analogies and logic are necessarily intertwined for people who speak english or greek, they are unrelated for people who speak modern mandarin chinese?

conceit 11y ago
The similarity between according to" + "ratio," and “of or pertaining to speech or reason or reasoning, rational, reasonable” is just too simple and striking to be missed and forgotten. No linguistic reasoning is needed however, to see that an analogy essentially needs logic to work in any language. It helps however. EG in English tongue still language in an idiomatic metaphorical sense, analog to the original meaning of logos, tongue, metaphorically referring to speech. My argument is not ignorant, anyway, it's arrogant.
- thaumasiotes 11y ago
  You are making an argument which includes, but is even dumber than, the etymological fallacy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy ). I stand by "extremely ignorant".
  - conceit 11y ago
    I'm sorry, the initial analogy, that a condom is easy to pierce was just an example for the general assumption, that security is easy if the thread is not purposefully malignant, for varying measures of malignant. Someone who doesn't even understand that and that the linguistic argument is of the table, and still keeps going, shouldn't try to talk about logic, as right as some of the individual arguments might be. Ana-logically, I shouldn't be writing any more about this.
- bakirtzis 11y ago
  I don't know about the second part of your argument, where you claim you don't need any linguistic reasoning to see that analogy needs logic (I'm personally not convinced). However, your argument about the connection-in the context you are putting it in-of the words logic and analogy is absolutely false. Αναλογία means the comparative association of two (antithetical) objects in quantity, size, etc. Λογική means to reason with a basis in reality.

talles 11y ago

> There is no analogy without logic. I even fail to recognize a difference between speech and logic, speech without logic, by analogy, would be just noise. Sure. That's why sometimes we see such bad analogies, the logic doesn't match so well the actual idea. When the idea you are trying to convey isn't that complicated at all you're probably better off using just pure logic and not complicated constructs such as analogies. As for speech, indeed, there's a deep logic bounding the language structures we use. The problem with language (logic and meaning wise) is that language is relative to the environment and to the speakers of the conversation. You have to figure out the "language game" where the conversation is being held. As for logic, we expect no subjectivity (if there is subjectivity it's bad logic).