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ObOriginalTanenbaumTorvaldsConflictLink: <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.os.minix/wlhw16QWltI%5B1-25%5D> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/c

ObOriginalTanenbaumTorvaldsConflictLink: <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.os.minix/wlhw16QWltI%5B1-25%5D> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.os.minix/wlhw16... Linus' personality is remarkably intact, 24 years later. More background: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanenbaum%E2%80%93Torvalds_debate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanenbaum%E2%80%93Torvalds_deb...

digi_owl 11y ago
Interesting to see him come back further down the thread to apologize for his initial outburst. There may be more than a few doing FOSS projects right now that could learn a thing or two from that.
- justincormack 11y ago
  Yes I always liked this quote... True, linux is monolithic, and I agree that microkernels are nicer... As has been noted (not only by me), the linux kernel is a miniscule part of a complete system: Full sources for linux currently runs to about 200kB compressed. And all of that source is portable, except for this tiny kernel that you can (provably: I did it) re-write totally from scratch in less than a year without having /any/ prior knowledge.
  - nickpsecurity 11y ago
    I thought of redoing Linux with high-security engineering. Looked at a book on the kernel and some of the source. Decided against a one man rewrite. Although, my first discoveries looking at prior attempts at highly secure UNIX (Data Secure, UCLA and Trusted Xenix) showed that securing UNIX with app compatibility was impossible or improbable.
yxlx 11y ago
URL was corrupted for me. Working link: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.minix/browse_thread/thread/c25870d7a41696d2/f447530d082cd95d?tvc=2 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.minix/browse_thread/t...
nickpsecurity 11y ago
Relevant to their debate with modern elements: http://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/reliable-os/ http://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/reliable-os/ http://www.coyotos.org/docs/misc/linus-rebuttal.html http://www.coyotos.org/docs/misc/linus-rebuttal.html
- snvzz 11y ago
  Also: http://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2016/01/01/0/ http://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2016/01/01/0/
  - nickpsecurity 11y ago
    Didn't know about that one. Had a few links and data new to me. Thanks for the link!
- conceit 11y ago
  In the last link, Dr. Shapiro calls Linus wrong, is he still alive, even?
  - nickpsecurity 11y ago
    Did you mean who is he or where is he? Shapiro and his people cranked out one exemplar piece of work after another: security kernel for Scheme LISP; capability-secure OS (EROS); trusted networking stack; secure, partitioned GUI; persistent apps; verifiable ML-like system language in prototype form. Was revising that language and EROS successor (Coyotos) when Microsoft poached him. Now he's a professor but Im not sure if he's still active or why he quit if not. Many, myself included, reduced industry and FOSS activities in high assurance because of virtually no demand plus unwillingness of majority to leverage proven techniques. Snowden leaks later confirmed work like his (and mine) would've stopped many of their attacks. So, still worth looking at his publications and reading his essays if you're learning strong, security engineering.
    - abecedarius 11y ago
      Re the Scheme work, I think you're thinking of Jonathan Rees. I agree that this vein of work deserved far more support. (I once stayed off the job market for several months hoping for a DARPA contract in capability security to come through -- it didn't -- so I'm hardly unbiased.)

digi_owl 11y ago

Interesting to see him come back further down the thread to apologize for his initial outburst. There may be more than a few doing FOSS projects right now that could learn a thing or two from that.

justincormack 11y ago
Yes I always liked this quote... True, linux is monolithic, and I agree that microkernels are nicer... As has been noted (not only by me), the linux kernel is a miniscule part of a complete system: Full sources for linux currently runs to about 200kB compressed. And all of that source is portable, except for this tiny kernel that you can (provably: I did it) re-write totally from scratch in less than a year without having /any/ prior knowledge.
- nickpsecurity 11y ago
  I thought of redoing Linux with high-security engineering. Looked at a book on the kernel and some of the source. Decided against a one man rewrite. Although, my first discoveries looking at prior attempts at highly secure UNIX (Data Secure, UCLA and Trusted Xenix) showed that securing UNIX with app compatibility was impossible or improbable.

yxlx 11y ago

URL was corrupted for me. Working link: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.minix/browse_thread/thread/c25870d7a41696d2/f447530d082cd95d?tvc=2 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.minix/browse_thread/t...

nickpsecurity 11y ago

Relevant to their debate with modern elements: http://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/reliable-os/ http://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/reliable-os/ http://www.coyotos.org/docs/misc/linus-rebuttal.html http://www.coyotos.org/docs/misc/linus-rebuttal.html

snvzz 11y ago
Also: http://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2016/01/01/0/ http://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2016/01/01/0/
- nickpsecurity 11y ago
  Didn't know about that one. Had a few links and data new to me. Thanks for the link!
conceit 11y ago
In the last link, Dr. Shapiro calls Linus wrong, is he still alive, even?
- nickpsecurity 11y ago
  Did you mean who is he or where is he? Shapiro and his people cranked out one exemplar piece of work after another: security kernel for Scheme LISP; capability-secure OS (EROS); trusted networking stack; secure, partitioned GUI; persistent apps; verifiable ML-like system language in prototype form. Was revising that language and EROS successor (Coyotos) when Microsoft poached him. Now he's a professor but Im not sure if he's still active or why he quit if not. Many, myself included, reduced industry and FOSS activities in high assurance because of virtually no demand plus unwillingness of majority to leverage proven techniques. Snowden leaks later confirmed work like his (and mine) would've stopped many of their attacks. So, still worth looking at his publications and reading his essays if you're learning strong, security engineering.
  - abecedarius 11y ago
    Re the Scheme work, I think you're thinking of Jonathan Rees. I agree that this vein of work deserved far more support. (I once stayed off the job market for several months hoping for a DARPA contract in capability security to come through -- it didn't -- so I'm hardly unbiased.)