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Which model exactly? How is it more environmentally friendly than a Tesla? Surely the mileage is very poor...? (I'm in the market for a cheap car and am genuin

by bambax 11y ago

Which model exactly? How is it more environmentally friendly than a Tesla? Surely the mileage is very poor...? (I'm in the market for a cheap car and am genuinely interested in your answers ;-)

JshWright 11y ago
It's more environmentally friendly because it's already built.
- wlesieutre 11y ago
  Note that this is true of any car in a car dealer lot. But it only matters as a comparison when a car is potentially at end-of-life, and whether it stays on the road or gets shoved in a junkyard and replaced with a new one is an open question. If somebody decides to replace their 2013 model, it's basically 100% odds of staying on the road, and that car being on the road maybe represents one less new car that could have been made. But person who buys the used 2013 might be selling their 2001 to someone who takes it and then scraps their 1992 model. The net effect is one new car being manufactured, and one old car being scrapped. We can't take each transaction in the chain and say "This sale prevented a new car from needing to be made and saved a bunch of energy and material costs, and so did this one, and so did this one." That's only with respect to the manufacturing side, or what we'd call "embodied energy". There are considerations from ongoing costs too, like how the gas mileage (probably fine, I've clocked my 1998 Civic at around 32 MPG) or emissions (I have no idea) compare against a newer car.
  - qume 11y ago
    I would wager that 80% of cars that are crushed (which weren't in an accident) could be repaired (if broken) or 'fixed up' to operate better than the last owner thought possible for less than a days work and perhaps a few hundred dollars. I do appreciate your point, but I think people are far too afraid of older cars and they are scrapped too soon. I was hoping to convince some folk in this tech community that old cars can be a good idea. Save money, have fun, help the environment. Hell, buy an old Rolls Royce... why not?!
    - Spooky23 11y ago
      You may have luxury of feeling that way -- most people do not. The average age of the US auto fleet is significantly older than it once was. 10+ year old cars are like 5-7x more common than they were 10-15 year ago. Hell, I drive a 2003 model year car that isn't going anywhere.
      - dmoy 11y ago
        Look if Cuba can drive around on their fleet of ridiculously old cars, then it can be done. It just might not be super easy or labor-cheap. I think what GP is getting at is if you start optimizing first for reuse, there's a lot of cars we wouldn't need to build.
        wlesieutre 11y ago
        Mostly just wanted to point out that there are two numbers that drive how many new cars are sold: 1) Increase in total number of vehicles in use (relatively level 2008-2013, a quick google didn't find newer data) 2) Old vehicles taken off the road being replaced by new ones The net effect of a particular person buying a slightly used car over a new one is basically nothing. The big picture only changes when people are choosing to keep an old car on the road for longer.
        Spooky23 11y ago
        One of the side effects of emissions controls introduced in the late 90s is that cars are way more reliable. Basically these days most cars can easily achieve 200k miles or more without heroic labor. I can't find a free source of the data, but I know in my state 10+ year old auto registrations spiked from 2008 onwards.
    - ssmoot 11y ago
      I totally buy the environmental impact argument on keeping that Mercedes vs buying the Tesla. That isn't the only concern though. In a high speed collision against a modern 5-Star vehicle the people in the Mercedes are pretty much toast. I think it's possible you could upgrade the safety of an older vehicle in many ways, but realistically most owners never would beyond tires and modest braking improvements. And you'll probably not see "city stop" like systems or airbag cocoons become common aftermarket systems anytime soon.
- vectorjohn 11y ago
  The gasoline dwarfs the initial car manufacturer, as far as environmentalism goes.
qume 11y ago
JshWright got it of course - reuse, then recycle, then buy new if you have to. Mine is an E320 wagon. Any W124 or W126 chassis is a good bet as it's before Merc started going down hill in build quality.

by bambax 11y ago

Which model exactly? How is it more environmentally friendly than a Tesla? Surely the mileage is very poor...? (I'm in the market for a cheap car and am genuinely interested in your answers ;-)

JshWright 11y ago

It's more environmentally friendly because it's already built.

wlesieutre 11y ago
Note that this is true of any car in a car dealer lot. But it only matters as a comparison when a car is potentially at end-of-life, and whether it stays on the road or gets shoved in a junkyard and replaced with a new one is an open question. If somebody decides to replace their 2013 model, it's basically 100% odds of staying on the road, and that car being on the road maybe represents one less new car that could have been made. But person who buys the used 2013 might be selling their 2001 to someone who takes it and then scraps their 1992 model. The net effect is one new car being manufactured, and one old car being scrapped. We can't take each transaction in the chain and say "This sale prevented a new car from needing to be made and saved a bunch of energy and material costs, and so did this one, and so did this one." That's only with respect to the manufacturing side, or what we'd call "embodied energy". There are considerations from ongoing costs too, like how the gas mileage (probably fine, I've clocked my 1998 Civic at around 32 MPG) or emissions (I have no idea) compare against a newer car.
- qume 11y ago
  I would wager that 80% of cars that are crushed (which weren't in an accident) could be repaired (if broken) or 'fixed up' to operate better than the last owner thought possible for less than a days work and perhaps a few hundred dollars. I do appreciate your point, but I think people are far too afraid of older cars and they are scrapped too soon. I was hoping to convince some folk in this tech community that old cars can be a good idea. Save money, have fun, help the environment. Hell, buy an old Rolls Royce... why not?!
  - Spooky23 11y ago
    You may have luxury of feeling that way -- most people do not. The average age of the US auto fleet is significantly older than it once was. 10+ year old cars are like 5-7x more common than they were 10-15 year ago. Hell, I drive a 2003 model year car that isn't going anywhere.
    - dmoy 11y ago
      Look if Cuba can drive around on their fleet of ridiculously old cars, then it can be done. It just might not be super easy or labor-cheap. I think what GP is getting at is if you start optimizing first for reuse, there's a lot of cars we wouldn't need to build.
      - wlesieutre 11y ago
        Mostly just wanted to point out that there are two numbers that drive how many new cars are sold: 1) Increase in total number of vehicles in use (relatively level 2008-2013, a quick google didn't find newer data) 2) Old vehicles taken off the road being replaced by new ones The net effect of a particular person buying a slightly used car over a new one is basically nothing. The big picture only changes when people are choosing to keep an old car on the road for longer.
      - Spooky23 11y ago
        One of the side effects of emissions controls introduced in the late 90s is that cars are way more reliable. Basically these days most cars can easily achieve 200k miles or more without heroic labor. I can't find a free source of the data, but I know in my state 10+ year old auto registrations spiked from 2008 onwards.
  - ssmoot 11y ago
    I totally buy the environmental impact argument on keeping that Mercedes vs buying the Tesla. That isn't the only concern though. In a high speed collision against a modern 5-Star vehicle the people in the Mercedes are pretty much toast. I think it's possible you could upgrade the safety of an older vehicle in many ways, but realistically most owners never would beyond tires and modest braking improvements. And you'll probably not see "city stop" like systems or airbag cocoons become common aftermarket systems anytime soon.
vectorjohn 11y ago
The gasoline dwarfs the initial car manufacturer, as far as environmentalism goes.

qume 11y ago

JshWright got it of course - reuse, then recycle, then buy new if you have to. Mine is an E320 wagon. Any W124 or W126 chassis is a good bet as it's before Merc started going down hill in build quality.