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And yet we have suicide prevention hotlines. Go figure.

by JackFr 11y ago

detaro 11y ago
Asking for help is a form of personal agency, especially (or maybe even only) if there actually is someone available to ask.
XorNot 11y ago
There's a big difference between emotional teenagers doing something impulsive, people with mental illness (treatable) doing something out of desperation and people with terminal illnesses or dementia choosing to avoid unpreventable suffering or losing everything they are. The biggest problem is most of the conditions which wipe people out take your rational agency as their first action.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
vacri 11y ago
We have gambling addiction hotlines too, but don't blanket-ban gambling.
PhasmaFelis 11y ago
Many people think that abortion is a bad choice, but one that women should be allowed to make. Saying you shouldn't do something is not the same as saying you shouldn't be allowed to do it.
- JackFr 11y ago
  The point is that people have always had, and will always have the ability to take their own lives. The prohibition under consideration here is that of taking someone else's life. Stated differently, assisted suicide is simply killing another person who has expressed a desire to die. I think it's reasonable to say someone shouldn't kill another person. The crux of the issue is the desire to die. Traditionally, the desire to die has been considered always to be a disordered desire, that is, a desire which though authentically felt, is best not acted upon. The cultural change that the assisted suicide movement is trying to make is that sometimes the desire to die is not disordered, that in fact for a class of people life literally is not worth living.
superuser2 11y ago
The very act of calling a suicide prevention hotline is solid evidence that the caller does not truly want to die. The point isn't that people should die, it's that they should choose. Compelling someone else's continued consciousness is absurd and, depending on the subjective experiencing of being inside that person's head, can be among the cruelest forms of torture. Just as it would be to fail to help someone who wants to stay alive.
- DanBC 11y ago
  > The very act of calling a suicide prevention hotline is solid evidence that the caller does not truly want to die. This sentence is proof that you do not understand suicide and have not read modern information about suicide. Since your misinformation is dangerous I urge you to do some reading before talking about something that you clearly know little about. Suicidality is complex, but "calling a hotline is solid evidence someone doesn't want to truly die" falls into several of the myths people spread about suicide: http://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help-you/myths-about-suicide http://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help-you/myths-about-su... Myth: People who talk about suicide aren’t serious and won’t go through with it. Myth: People who threaten suicide are just attention seeking and shouldn’t be taken seriously. Myth: People who are suicidal want to die. Myth: If a person is serious about killing themselves then there is nothing you can do.
  - superuser2 11y ago
    Taking steps to avoid death is trivially a signal that in some way a person wishes to avoid death; whether that side of their internal conflict will prevail is another matter and, of course, not at all certain. But it is 100% within the bounds of respecting their agency (and, I'd argue, a duty) to help someone who is fighting to stay alive do so. The argument is that suicide hotlines don't imply a paternalistic "all citizens must keep breathing at all costs" ideology because they require the voluntary step of asking for help, and someone who asks for help can be meaningfully said to want it. >Myth: People who are suicidal want to die. I agree that this is not true in general, but to say that it is never true is more of a philosophical position (the topic of this thread) than the measurable science fact you're making it out to be. > something that you clearly know little about. I can find many responses to this, but none of them civil.

And yet we have suicide prevention hotlines. Go figure.

by JackFr 11y ago

And yet we have suicide prevention hotlines. Go figure.

Asking for help is a form of personal agency, especially (or maybe even only) if there actually is someone available to ask.

XorNot 11y ago

There's a big difference between emotional teenagers doing something impulsive, people with mental illness (treatable) doing something out of desperation and people with terminal illnesses or dementia choosing to avoid unpreventable suffering or losing everything they are. The biggest problem is most of the conditions which wipe people out take your rational agency as their first action.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

vacri 11y ago

We have gambling addiction hotlines too, but don't blanket-ban gambling.

PhasmaFelis 11y ago

Many people think that abortion is a bad choice, but one that women should be allowed to make. Saying you shouldn't do something is not the same as saying you shouldn't be allowed to do it.

JackFr 11y ago
The point is that people have always had, and will always have the ability to take their own lives. The prohibition under consideration here is that of taking someone else's life. Stated differently, assisted suicide is simply killing another person who has expressed a desire to die. I think it's reasonable to say someone shouldn't kill another person. The crux of the issue is the desire to die. Traditionally, the desire to die has been considered always to be a disordered desire, that is, a desire which though authentically felt, is best not acted upon. The cultural change that the assisted suicide movement is trying to make is that sometimes the desire to die is not disordered, that in fact for a class of people life literally is not worth living.

superuser2 11y ago

The very act of calling a suicide prevention hotline is solid evidence that the caller does not truly want to die. The point isn't that people should die, it's that they should choose. Compelling someone else's continued consciousness is absurd and, depending on the subjective experiencing of being inside that person's head, can be among the cruelest forms of torture. Just as it would be to fail to help someone who wants to stay alive.

DanBC 11y ago
> The very act of calling a suicide prevention hotline is solid evidence that the caller does not truly want to die. This sentence is proof that you do not understand suicide and have not read modern information about suicide. Since your misinformation is dangerous I urge you to do some reading before talking about something that you clearly know little about. Suicidality is complex, but "calling a hotline is solid evidence someone doesn't want to truly die" falls into several of the myths people spread about suicide: http://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help-you/myths-about-suicide http://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help-you/myths-about-su... Myth: People who talk about suicide aren’t serious and won’t go through with it. Myth: People who threaten suicide are just attention seeking and shouldn’t be taken seriously. Myth: People who are suicidal want to die. Myth: If a person is serious about killing themselves then there is nothing you can do.
- superuser2 11y ago
  Taking steps to avoid death is trivially a signal that in some way a person wishes to avoid death; whether that side of their internal conflict will prevail is another matter and, of course, not at all certain. But it is 100% within the bounds of respecting their agency (and, I'd argue, a duty) to help someone who is fighting to stay alive do so. The argument is that suicide hotlines don't imply a paternalistic "all citizens must keep breathing at all costs" ideology because they require the voluntary step of asking for help, and someone who asks for help can be meaningfully said to want it. >Myth: People who are suicidal want to die. I agree that this is not true in general, but to say that it is never true is more of a philosophical position (the topic of this thread) than the measurable science fact you're making it out to be. > something that you clearly know little about. I can find many responses to this, but none of them civil.