4 ms·

I'm in the US, and only tip if I expect to visit the same restaurant in the near future. I don't frequent bars, but I know someone who recommends tipping the b

I'm in the US, and only tip if I expect to visit the same restaurant in the near future. I don't frequent bars, but I know someone who recommends tipping the bartender to make him more likely to give free refills: The cost of a tip can save money over the cost of buying a fresh drink each time.

whiddershins 11y ago
Honestly, In the United States food service workers are the ONLY workers who are exempt from minimum wage protection. Think about that for a moment. Your tip is assumed, the IRS actually tax waiters on a presumed 18% of the bill, whether or not you tip. When you don't tip, you are literally stealing money from the wait staff. It's a terrible system, I wish they would do away with this system, some prominent restaurants have taken bold steps against it, but if you go out to eat in the US, you simply must tip unless gratuity is included already on the bill. Any other choice is unethical.
- craigds 11y ago
  In the US, where tipping culture has thoroughly and irreversibly won, you are probably correct. In any other country, tipping is just encouraging that kind of exploitative system to take hold. I avoid tipping. On occasion people ask me if I want to leave a tip and I tell them they're making things worse for themselves in the long run. Workers should be paid a decent and reliable wage. Tipping encourages the opposite.
- MichaelBurge 11y ago
  Is that true? I would've expected that a diligent employee that tracks the exact amount of tips they actually received would only pay standard income tax on that amount, which would be reported to the IRS. I found this publication, which mentions an 8%(not 18%), but it appears that the cost falls on the employer not the employee: https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Reporting-Tip-Income-Restaurant-Tax-Tips https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Emplo... It also looks like that 8% can be requested to be as low as 2%, with sufficient documentation. That still seems strange to me, but I'm not familiar enough with the tax code here to understand what the tip allocation number is supposed to mean. It would boggle my mind if a diligent record-keeper was forced to pay taxes on money they didn't earn, and if this was upheld in tax court. And I would promptly start tipping the enforced tax on each meal I eat, at least until it's changed.
  - whiddershins 11y ago
    Even if what you are saying is accurate, and there seems to be a little ambiguity here, and the difference between the letter of the law and how it is applied, there's still the point that the tip is so completely ingrained in to the social contract, to decline to tip in a restaurant or bar in the United States could be said to be a form of fraud. I know that language sounds extreme, but the entire economy of the restaurant, including the menu price of the food, is calculated and arranged with a presumption of a specific tip percentage. The workers are employed with the understanding that the majority of their income is derived from tips, and since virtually everyone tips around the same amount (15-20%) it all works out. When that one lone person decides to not tip because they don't see the point or understand the culturally determined agreement, it is simply a tax on everyone else involved. There are a handful of restaurants that have done away with tipping, which is great in my opinion, because it removes this ambiguity. But in all other cases the tip should be considered as much an immutable part of the price as tax is. I know it seems insane, and it sort of is insane, but not doing it doesn't change things for the better. It just harms people randomly and the non-tipper benefits while all the other customers are making up the difference. Honestly, in NYC, many servers will literally chase you down the street and confront you if you fail to tip properly. Places will stop serving you, you can and will be blacklisted from bars and restaurants. It just isn't optional, although it would seem like it should be.
  - whiddershins 11y ago
    Also, I couldn't edit my comment, but I meant to say, IANAL/IANAA, but my understanding is that the IRS reserves the right to assume if wait staff document they made less than 18% of sales in tips, they are pocketing cash without claiming the income. It is impossible to prove a negative, that they didn't receive cash tips.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]

whiddershins 11y ago

Honestly, In the United States food service workers are the ONLY workers who are exempt from minimum wage protection. Think about that for a moment. Your tip is assumed, the IRS actually tax waiters on a presumed 18% of the bill, whether or not you tip. When you don't tip, you are literally stealing money from the wait staff. It's a terrible system, I wish they would do away with this system, some prominent restaurants have taken bold steps against it, but if you go out to eat in the US, you simply must tip unless gratuity is included already on the bill. Any other choice is unethical.

craigds 11y ago
In the US, where tipping culture has thoroughly and irreversibly won, you are probably correct. In any other country, tipping is just encouraging that kind of exploitative system to take hold. I avoid tipping. On occasion people ask me if I want to leave a tip and I tell them they're making things worse for themselves in the long run. Workers should be paid a decent and reliable wage. Tipping encourages the opposite.
MichaelBurge 11y ago
Is that true? I would've expected that a diligent employee that tracks the exact amount of tips they actually received would only pay standard income tax on that amount, which would be reported to the IRS. I found this publication, which mentions an 8%(not 18%), but it appears that the cost falls on the employer not the employee: https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Reporting-Tip-Income-Restaurant-Tax-Tips https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Emplo... It also looks like that 8% can be requested to be as low as 2%, with sufficient documentation. That still seems strange to me, but I'm not familiar enough with the tax code here to understand what the tip allocation number is supposed to mean. It would boggle my mind if a diligent record-keeper was forced to pay taxes on money they didn't earn, and if this was upheld in tax court. And I would promptly start tipping the enforced tax on each meal I eat, at least until it's changed.
- whiddershins 11y ago
  Even if what you are saying is accurate, and there seems to be a little ambiguity here, and the difference between the letter of the law and how it is applied, there's still the point that the tip is so completely ingrained in to the social contract, to decline to tip in a restaurant or bar in the United States could be said to be a form of fraud. I know that language sounds extreme, but the entire economy of the restaurant, including the menu price of the food, is calculated and arranged with a presumption of a specific tip percentage. The workers are employed with the understanding that the majority of their income is derived from tips, and since virtually everyone tips around the same amount (15-20%) it all works out. When that one lone person decides to not tip because they don't see the point or understand the culturally determined agreement, it is simply a tax on everyone else involved. There are a handful of restaurants that have done away with tipping, which is great in my opinion, because it removes this ambiguity. But in all other cases the tip should be considered as much an immutable part of the price as tax is. I know it seems insane, and it sort of is insane, but not doing it doesn't change things for the better. It just harms people randomly and the non-tipper benefits while all the other customers are making up the difference. Honestly, in NYC, many servers will literally chase you down the street and confront you if you fail to tip properly. Places will stop serving you, you can and will be blacklisted from bars and restaurants. It just isn't optional, although it would seem like it should be.
- whiddershins 11y ago
  Also, I couldn't edit my comment, but I meant to say, IANAL/IANAA, but my understanding is that the IRS reserves the right to assume if wait staff document they made less than 18% of sales in tips, they are pocketing cash without claiming the income. It is impossible to prove a negative, that they didn't receive cash tips.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]