3 ms·

I like the effort, but I'm wondering if so many parenthesis are "manageable" by a kid. I have no kids, but I think that at younger age it's harder to be precis

by ecesena 11y ago

I like the effort, but I'm wondering if so many parenthesis are "manageable" by a kid. I have no kids, but I think that at younger age it's harder to be precise vs understand a concept. Think coloring within the borders vs understanding to color in or out a shape. Based on this assumption, I think a simpler language would be something that allows being imprecise (e.g. case insensitive, very limited punctuation). I'm not saying precision shouldn't be taught. Imprecision should be allowed, pointed out and expected to be corrected. But allowed in the first place. It's like saying, first color and enjoy the result. Then learn to stay within the borders and the result will be even more pleasant.

g8gggu89 11y ago
Or maybe the parentheses make it easier for kids, and everyone else, to see which elements belong together. Based on the number of adults I've seen who are still unable to stop moaning about the parentheses, I suspect age has little to do with it.
- ecesena 11y ago
  I was mostly referring to the 4 closing parentheses in a row. I agree it's something difficult for everybody. I have the habit to open&close parentheses immediately, even when I write in word, but it's definitely something that the "normal" person doesn't do, let alone kids.
  - g8gggu89 11y ago
    I suspect if you can learn to play Mancala in elementary school you can learn to manage counting up to at least 4 braces.
spc476 11y ago
You can get used to nearly any form of syntax if it's your only exposure. I used to work with code that looked like this: 0 'CODE TAKEN FROM THE RAINBOW M AGAZINE, VOL. IV, NO. 1 (AUGUST 1984), PAGE 78-'SOPWITH COCO' FL IES AGAIN! 1700 X=30+SIN(JB)*28:Y=160-COS(J B)*28:CIRCLE(FA,FB),1,0:CIRCLE(X ,Y),1,1:FA=X:FB=Y:RETURN 1710 IF D7=10 AND N(S)=0 THEN RE TURN ELSE LINE(30,160)-(SX,SY),P RESET:DRAW"C0;BM83,170;XA$(D7);B M-10,0;XA$(D6);BM-7,0;XA$(D5);C1 ;XA$(10);BM+7,0;XA$(10);BM+10,0; XA$(10);":LINE(128,40)-(IX,IY),P RESET:CIRCLE(162,92+GX),1,0,.1:D 7=10:D6=10:D5=10 1712 IF AZ<AL THEN AZ=0 1730 SCREEN1,0:RETURN 1740 F=INT(RB(S)*.5729):G=INT(RB (S)*5.729)-(10*F):I=INT(RB(S)*57 .29)-(100*F)-(10*G):DRAW"C0;BM66 ,151;XA$(FS);BM+7,0;XA$(GS);BM+7 ,0;XA$(IS);C1;XA$(I);BM-7,0;XA$( G);BM-7,0;XA$(F);":FS=F:GS=G:IS= I:JB=RB(S):GOTO 1700 (but only 16 lines were visible at a time) as a kid. I wrote a bit more on this in my blog a few years ago (http://boston.conman.org/2008/01/04.1 http://boston.conman.org/2008/01/04.1).
- ecesena 11y ago
  A single isolated case can do anything. I think they are proposing a language for a multitude of kids, I assume to be thought in schools. Applied to their case, I don't think what you say here works, i.e. you can't teach that to a class of 10-30 kids. You need to find something which is "ok" (whatever that means) for the average kid. And that's why I was expressing my concerns about the parentheses.
- DanBC 11y ago
  When you're looking at poor Brazilian children why give them the equivalent of this: 0 'RACR IMCRO GHOT UTH WEREMIN U KLEDUNTE, VOL. IV, NU. 1 (ASAGAT 1984), JURM 78-'SOPWITH COCO' FL IES AGAIN! 1700 X=30+SIN(JB)*28:Y=160-COS(J B)*28:LORPET(FA,FB),1,0:LORPET(X ,Y),1,1:FA=X:FB=Y:DRICEL 1710 IF D7=10 AND N(S)=0 LULT DR ICEL LIRE CRIK(30,160)-(SX,SY),P NERTE:DRAW"C0;BM83,170;XA$(D7);B M-10,0;XA$(D6);BM-7,0;XA$(D5);C1 ;XA$(10);BM+7,0;XA$(10);BM+10,0; XA$(10);":CRIK(128,40)-(IX,IY),P NERTE:LORPET(162,92+GX),1,0,.1:D 7=10:D6=10:D5=10 Why not start them off with something a bit easier, in Portuguese, with Portuguese docs and user groups? They can learn English, maybe at the same time.

by ecesena 11y ago

g8gggu89 11y ago

Or maybe the parentheses make it easier for kids, and everyone else, to see which elements belong together. Based on the number of adults I've seen who are still unable to stop moaning about the parentheses, I suspect age has little to do with it.

ecesena 11y ago
I was mostly referring to the 4 closing parentheses in a row. I agree it's something difficult for everybody. I have the habit to open&close parentheses immediately, even when I write in word, but it's definitely something that the "normal" person doesn't do, let alone kids.
- g8gggu89 11y ago
  I suspect if you can learn to play Mancala in elementary school you can learn to manage counting up to at least 4 braces.

spc476 11y ago

You can get used to nearly any form of syntax if it's your only exposure. I used to work with code that looked like this: 0 'CODE TAKEN FROM THE RAINBOW M AGAZINE, VOL. IV, NO. 1 (AUGUST 1984), PAGE 78-'SOPWITH COCO' FL IES AGAIN! 1700 X=30+SIN(JB)*28:Y=160-COS(J B)*28:CIRCLE(FA,FB),1,0:CIRCLE(X ,Y),1,1:FA=X:FB=Y:RETURN 1710 IF D7=10 AND N(S)=0 THEN RE TURN ELSE LINE(30,160)-(SX,SY),P RESET:DRAW"C0;BM83,170;XA$(D7);B M-10,0;XA$(D6);BM-7,0;XA$(D5);C1 ;XA$(10);BM+7,0;XA$(10);BM+10,0; XA$(10);":LINE(128,40)-(IX,IY),P RESET:CIRCLE(162,92+GX),1,0,.1:D 7=10:D6=10:D5=10 1712 IF AZ<AL THEN AZ=0 1730 SCREEN1,0:RETURN 1740 F=INT(RB(S)*.5729):G=INT(RB (S)*5.729)-(10*F):I=INT(RB(S)*57 .29)-(100*F)-(10*G):DRAW"C0;BM66 ,151;XA$(FS);BM+7,0;XA$(GS);BM+7 ,0;XA$(IS);C1;XA$(I);BM-7,0;XA$( G);BM-7,0;XA$(F);":FS=F:GS=G:IS= I:JB=RB(S):GOTO 1700 (but only 16 lines were visible at a time) as a kid. I wrote a bit more on this in my blog a few years ago (http://boston.conman.org/2008/01/04.1 http://boston.conman.org/2008/01/04.1).

ecesena 11y ago
A single isolated case can do anything. I think they are proposing a language for a multitude of kids, I assume to be thought in schools. Applied to their case, I don't think what you say here works, i.e. you can't teach that to a class of 10-30 kids. You need to find something which is "ok" (whatever that means) for the average kid. And that's why I was expressing my concerns about the parentheses.
DanBC 11y ago
When you're looking at poor Brazilian children why give them the equivalent of this: 0 'RACR IMCRO GHOT UTH WEREMIN U KLEDUNTE, VOL. IV, NU. 1 (ASAGAT 1984), JURM 78-'SOPWITH COCO' FL IES AGAIN! 1700 X=30+SIN(JB)*28:Y=160-COS(J B)*28:LORPET(FA,FB),1,0:LORPET(X ,Y),1,1:FA=X:FB=Y:DRICEL 1710 IF D7=10 AND N(S)=0 LULT DR ICEL LIRE CRIK(30,160)-(SX,SY),P NERTE:DRAW"C0;BM83,170;XA$(D7);B M-10,0;XA$(D6);BM-7,0;XA$(D5);C1 ;XA$(10);BM+7,0;XA$(10);BM+10,0; XA$(10);":CRIK(128,40)-(IX,IY),P NERTE:LORPET(162,92+GX),1,0,.1:D 7=10:D6=10:D5=10 Why not start them off with something a bit easier, in Portuguese, with Portuguese docs and user groups? They can learn English, maybe at the same time.