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"The United States faces a global competitiveness crisis that, if not addressed, will put our nation at a strategic disadvantage for decades to come. In just a

"The United States faces a global competitiveness crisis that, if not addressed, will put our nation at a strategic disadvantage for decades to come. In just a few years, there will be 1.8 million jobs unfilled in our nation" would love to see the data behind this as it seems unlikely to me. what i see is many american companies offshoring large swaths of their software development efforts to foreign satellite offices, or outright replacing in-house IT development with SaaS solutions. from my perspective, i have a hard time imagining some confluence of events resulting in "1.8 million jobs unfilled" here in the US any time soon.

Amezarak 11y ago
Well, a defense contractor at the location I work is complaining that they can't fill jobs and can't keep them filled. The problem is that they won't pay more than 55k for programmers or engineers, but the popular business explanation is that it's a skills shortage - there just aren't enough skilled applicants! No, there's just not enough skilled applicants willing to work for bottom-barrel wages. To be fair, this is mostly being driven by the government in the defense contracting world.
- npalli 11y ago
  What location is this? So this pool of skilled applicants who won't work for 55K, what jobs are they doing instead? Since most explanations of your sort claim that a large pool of skilled IT workers will materialize if the pay is increased, let's say the pay is increased to 75K which job sectors will people leave and join IT?
  - UK-AL 11y ago
    Well other professions with become less attractive in comparison and skilled people will train to be developers. In many places it still a far better career decision, to train to become an accountant, lawyer, sales, etc then to become a developer.
  - fweespeech 11y ago
    > Since most explanations of your sort claim that a large pool of skilled IT workers will materialize if the pay is increased, let's say the pay is increased to 75K which job sectors will people leave and join IT? We have no trouble filling positions at $70k. Like, literally, we have never had an open position for longer than 60 days. The problem is people keep complaining they can't fill positions and pay $15-20k below market rate. Why, yes, people are not going to take a 20% paycut to work for you.
  - TheCoelacanth 11y ago
    It will work the same way that supply and demand works for everything. 1. it encourages a larger supply because more people will be incentivized to work in the field 2. it encourages more efficient use of the workers, e.g. using more off-the-shelf software instead of custom solutions. 3. it discourages less valuable uses of the workers, freeing them up to do more valuable work
- yeukhon 11y ago
  I agree. Even if I live in a rural area, I expect a much more higher wage. What if I want to move to another location in a few years? I should be compensated fairly, not accordingly local average wage. As a matter of fact, when I visited West Virgina and lived there for two months, I found cost of living in a low-spend life is pretty much the same as in NYC. I have to drive, I have to buy grocery, I have to entertain myself occasionally, taking some wilderness trip here and there. While a house in WV is generally 10x cheaper, everything else pretty much the same.
- theklub 11y ago
  Is that one of those jobs that requires security clearance, etc? Because that's one of the few cases where I could see there being a shortage.
  - Grishnakh 11y ago
    Yes, it probably does require a clearance. This limits the applicant pool even further. To overcome this, the companies need to pay higher salaries; it's quite simple. The fact that they're not willing to pay commensurately higher salaries to attract a narrower labor pool shows there's something seriously wrong. And unlike places like Microsoft or Disney, they can't just offshore their work or bring in a bunch of H1-Bs, because of the requirement for security clearances.
- mtberatwork 11y ago
  Unless this is for an entry-level position at one of the big contractors, I've never heard of a salary this low in the defense world. The defense world is the only place you'll make a six figure salary writing mediocre Java.
  - vonmoltke 11y ago
    I was doing something wrong, then, because after 10 years I wasn't close to six figures and I was writing difficult signal processing code in C.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
canthonytucci 11y ago
I see a lot of people complaining "we don't have enough programmers", while not adjusting themselves to account for the lack of supply they freely admit exists. They've tried exploiting people in places with worse economies, but anyone who's worked with this model knows, it doesn't produce quality products. The overhead, and the fact that almost everyone who's any good just winds up another savvy, expensive programmer make it a losing game for software of any reasonable complexity. I know plenty of developers who would be happy to take one the jobs people complain about going unfilled(both in teaching or just elsewhere in CS) if _only_ someone was willing to pay and treat them like adult human beings. Good programmers hate to be managed and know what they are worth, there's no getting around that. I agree that there is a shortage of good programmers, "good help is hard to find" is not a new phrase. The obvious solution if you want or need one is to open your wallet and tone down your bullshit. You can woo the young ones with beer in the fridge and other nonsense, but at the end of the day, people with experience want to be paid and respected. I've been freelancing/looking for work for a while now and working at consulting companies for quite some time before that. I consistently see the same problems. - People want software (and therefore programmers) they can't afford. - People refuse to believe experts tell them things they don't want to hear. - Almost no one in management has read the mythical man month. - People consistently prioritize cost over quality and wind up with neither. - Gullible, superstitious morons gobble up any shortcut offered to avoid paying people properly or treating others like human beings.

Amezarak 11y ago

Well, a defense contractor at the location I work is complaining that they can't fill jobs and can't keep them filled. The problem is that they won't pay more than 55k for programmers or engineers, but the popular business explanation is that it's a skills shortage - there just aren't enough skilled applicants! No, there's just not enough skilled applicants willing to work for bottom-barrel wages. To be fair, this is mostly being driven by the government in the defense contracting world.

npalli 11y ago
What location is this? So this pool of skilled applicants who won't work for 55K, what jobs are they doing instead? Since most explanations of your sort claim that a large pool of skilled IT workers will materialize if the pay is increased, let's say the pay is increased to 75K which job sectors will people leave and join IT?
- UK-AL 11y ago
  Well other professions with become less attractive in comparison and skilled people will train to be developers. In many places it still a far better career decision, to train to become an accountant, lawyer, sales, etc then to become a developer.
- fweespeech 11y ago
  > Since most explanations of your sort claim that a large pool of skilled IT workers will materialize if the pay is increased, let's say the pay is increased to 75K which job sectors will people leave and join IT? We have no trouble filling positions at $70k. Like, literally, we have never had an open position for longer than 60 days. The problem is people keep complaining they can't fill positions and pay $15-20k below market rate. Why, yes, people are not going to take a 20% paycut to work for you.
- TheCoelacanth 11y ago
  It will work the same way that supply and demand works for everything. 1. it encourages a larger supply because more people will be incentivized to work in the field 2. it encourages more efficient use of the workers, e.g. using more off-the-shelf software instead of custom solutions. 3. it discourages less valuable uses of the workers, freeing them up to do more valuable work
yeukhon 11y ago
I agree. Even if I live in a rural area, I expect a much more higher wage. What if I want to move to another location in a few years? I should be compensated fairly, not accordingly local average wage. As a matter of fact, when I visited West Virgina and lived there for two months, I found cost of living in a low-spend life is pretty much the same as in NYC. I have to drive, I have to buy grocery, I have to entertain myself occasionally, taking some wilderness trip here and there. While a house in WV is generally 10x cheaper, everything else pretty much the same.
theklub 11y ago
Is that one of those jobs that requires security clearance, etc? Because that's one of the few cases where I could see there being a shortage.
- Grishnakh 11y ago
  Yes, it probably does require a clearance. This limits the applicant pool even further. To overcome this, the companies need to pay higher salaries; it's quite simple. The fact that they're not willing to pay commensurately higher salaries to attract a narrower labor pool shows there's something seriously wrong. And unlike places like Microsoft or Disney, they can't just offshore their work or bring in a bunch of H1-Bs, because of the requirement for security clearances.
mtberatwork 11y ago
Unless this is for an entry-level position at one of the big contractors, I've never heard of a salary this low in the defense world. The defense world is the only place you'll make a six figure salary writing mediocre Java.
- vonmoltke 11y ago
  I was doing something wrong, then, because after 10 years I wasn't close to six figures and I was writing difficult signal processing code in C.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

canthonytucci 11y ago

I see a lot of people complaining "we don't have enough programmers", while not adjusting themselves to account for the lack of supply they freely admit exists. They've tried exploiting people in places with worse economies, but anyone who's worked with this model knows, it doesn't produce quality products. The overhead, and the fact that almost everyone who's any good just winds up another savvy, expensive programmer make it a losing game for software of any reasonable complexity. I know plenty of developers who would be happy to take one the jobs people complain about going unfilled(both in teaching or just elsewhere in CS) if _only_ someone was willing to pay and treat them like adult human beings. Good programmers hate to be managed and know what they are worth, there's no getting around that. I agree that there is a shortage of good programmers, "good help is hard to find" is not a new phrase. The obvious solution if you want or need one is to open your wallet and tone down your bullshit. You can woo the young ones with beer in the fridge and other nonsense, but at the end of the day, people with experience want to be paid and respected. I've been freelancing/looking for work for a while now and working at consulting companies for quite some time before that. I consistently see the same problems. - People want software (and therefore programmers) they can't afford. - People refuse to believe experts tell them things they don't want to hear. - Almost no one in management has read the mythical man month. - People consistently prioritize cost over quality and wind up with neither. - Gullible, superstitious morons gobble up any shortcut offered to avoid paying people properly or treating others like human beings.