6 ms·

CS is a discipline best self-taught. I'm not sure better education will solve anything. It'll just produce more mediocre engineers.

deathhand 11y ago
The CS thought process is self-taught. I've seen old women write out mathematical 'if' statements on paper and then ask me how to implement in Excel. Understanding data arrays is inherit. Knowing that they are called data arrays is something else entirely.
dmansen 11y ago
The answer to mediocre engineers is less education? Doesn't follow.
- pmarreck 11y ago
  Education is force-fed, extrinsic motivation. Self-education is self-fed, intrinsic motivation. There is an arguably significant difference in the quality of the outcomes.
  - UK-AL 11y ago
    Only crap education. Good education gives you cool things explore, and experienced people to discuss them with. If I was completely self-taught I would not have as strong algorithm skills, operating system implementation knowledge or compilers skills.
    - pmarreck 11y ago
      Part of self-teaching may include taking formal online coursework voluntarily. For example I'm currently halfway through https://www.coursera.org/learn/machine-learning https://www.coursera.org/learn/machine-learning
cubano 11y ago
So true. Can you "teach" someone to be a world-class guitarist or songwriter? No you cannot...it takes a deep ambitious drive and 1000's of hours of self-study that are laced with frustration and the feeling that you are making no progress whatsoever. I have never taken a class that "educated" me about that particular process and how to overcome the internal resistances to it.
- rmah 11y ago
  Perhaps not "world class"? But you can teach people to play guitar or write songs at a reasonably competent level.
samfisher83 11y ago
If this were the case companies like google Facebook etc. would be full of self taught programmer. In reality most of people there go to stanford, Harvard etc. aka the top schools. Just look at their executive bios or look through linkedin.
- w1ntermute 11y ago
  You're assuming that going to Stanford or Harvard is mutually exclusive with being a self-taught programmer. I'd guess that the most successful Stanford or Harvard CS grads are self-taught coders (and also have great soft skills).
- ken47 11y ago
  Just look at their executive bios or look through linkedin. Solid statistics.
canthonytucci 11y ago
I've never met a programmer who was any good that wasn't mostly self-educated. In order to be successful in the fluid world of development, one must always be learning, and the information is out there, for free, ripe for the picking. A good programmer is voracious, always wanting to know and understand more. People who wait around for a third party to educate them, on that third party's schedule appear to me as people who aren't passionate about whatever they are studying. I understand the structure of formal education and socialization with like-minded people has real value (I would not be half the person I am today were it not for the UVM computer science student association) , but it's a "nice-to-have", the drive is the only requirement for a programmer you'd want to work with.
henrikschroder 11y ago
I'm not so sure that self-teaching is the best way, I'm sure there are people that can be fantastic developers through education alone. But it's very clear that the key to being a developer is some sort of "talent" for making sense of how a computer works, and after decades of research we still can't tell if a person has this talent or not. It's an established fact that a large number of people who apply to CS studies just flunk out, because they lack this talent, and we don't know beforehand who is going to flunk out or not. So stuffing education CS programmes full of people, assuming everyone is going to magically become a great developer is a complete pipe-dream of people who think about employees as interchangeable resources. Reality doesn't work that way.
Terr_ 11y ago
Survivorship bias? The best programmers are self-taught because learning on your own is a tougher filter, both in terms of success and as a measure of personal interest. Meanwhile, the mediocre programmers who tried doing everything on their own are harder to count, either because they gave up or because they aren't notable/visible.

deathhand 11y ago

The CS thought process is self-taught. I've seen old women write out mathematical 'if' statements on paper and then ask me how to implement in Excel. Understanding data arrays is inherit. Knowing that they are called data arrays is something else entirely.

dmansen 11y ago

The answer to mediocre engineers is less education? Doesn't follow.

pmarreck 11y ago
Education is force-fed, extrinsic motivation. Self-education is self-fed, intrinsic motivation. There is an arguably significant difference in the quality of the outcomes.
- UK-AL 11y ago
  Only crap education. Good education gives you cool things explore, and experienced people to discuss them with. If I was completely self-taught I would not have as strong algorithm skills, operating system implementation knowledge or compilers skills.
  - pmarreck 11y ago
    Part of self-teaching may include taking formal online coursework voluntarily. For example I'm currently halfway through https://www.coursera.org/learn/machine-learning https://www.coursera.org/learn/machine-learning

cubano 11y ago

So true. Can you "teach" someone to be a world-class guitarist or songwriter? No you cannot...it takes a deep ambitious drive and 1000's of hours of self-study that are laced with frustration and the feeling that you are making no progress whatsoever. I have never taken a class that "educated" me about that particular process and how to overcome the internal resistances to it.

rmah 11y ago
Perhaps not "world class"? But you can teach people to play guitar or write songs at a reasonably competent level.

samfisher83 11y ago

If this were the case companies like google Facebook etc. would be full of self taught programmer. In reality most of people there go to stanford, Harvard etc. aka the top schools. Just look at their executive bios or look through linkedin.

w1ntermute 11y ago
You're assuming that going to Stanford or Harvard is mutually exclusive with being a self-taught programmer. I'd guess that the most successful Stanford or Harvard CS grads are self-taught coders (and also have great soft skills).
ken47 11y ago
Just look at their executive bios or look through linkedin. Solid statistics.

canthonytucci 11y ago

I've never met a programmer who was any good that wasn't mostly self-educated. In order to be successful in the fluid world of development, one must always be learning, and the information is out there, for free, ripe for the picking. A good programmer is voracious, always wanting to know and understand more. People who wait around for a third party to educate them, on that third party's schedule appear to me as people who aren't passionate about whatever they are studying. I understand the structure of formal education and socialization with like-minded people has real value (I would not be half the person I am today were it not for the UVM computer science student association) , but it's a "nice-to-have", the drive is the only requirement for a programmer you'd want to work with.

henrikschroder 11y ago

I'm not so sure that self-teaching is the best way, I'm sure there are people that can be fantastic developers through education alone. But it's very clear that the key to being a developer is some sort of "talent" for making sense of how a computer works, and after decades of research we still can't tell if a person has this talent or not. It's an established fact that a large number of people who apply to CS studies just flunk out, because they lack this talent, and we don't know beforehand who is going to flunk out or not. So stuffing education CS programmes full of people, assuming everyone is going to magically become a great developer is a complete pipe-dream of people who think about employees as interchangeable resources. Reality doesn't work that way.

Terr_ 11y ago

Survivorship bias? The best programmers are self-taught because learning on your own is a tougher filter, both in terms of success and as a measure of personal interest. Meanwhile, the mediocre programmers who tried doing everything on their own are harder to count, either because they gave up or because they aren't notable/visible.