5 ms·

I see it as a chicken vs egg problem. The reason only 1 in 10 schools offer programming classes is probably the same reason CS jobs go unfulfilled. There are

by valine 11y ago

I see it as a chicken vs egg problem. The reason only 1 in 10 schools offer programming classes is probably the same reason CS jobs go unfulfilled. There are not enough people with the required expertise. I'm not studying Computer Science so I can get a job teaching programming classes at a high school.

dbcurtis 11y ago
+1 insightful
w1ntermute 11y ago
CS is a discipline best self-taught. I'm not sure better education will solve anything. It'll just produce more mediocre engineers.
- deathhand 11y ago
  The CS thought process is self-taught. I've seen old women write out mathematical 'if' statements on paper and then ask me how to implement in Excel. Understanding data arrays is inherit. Knowing that they are called data arrays is something else entirely.
- dmansen 11y ago
  The answer to mediocre engineers is less education? Doesn't follow.
  - pmarreck 11y ago
    Education is force-fed, extrinsic motivation. Self-education is self-fed, intrinsic motivation. There is an arguably significant difference in the quality of the outcomes.
    - UK-AL 11y ago
      Only crap education. Good education gives you cool things explore, and experienced people to discuss them with. If I was completely self-taught I would not have as strong algorithm skills, operating system implementation knowledge or compilers skills.
      - pmarreck 11y ago
        Part of self-teaching may include taking formal online coursework voluntarily. For example I'm currently halfway through https://www.coursera.org/learn/machine-learning https://www.coursera.org/learn/machine-learning
- cubano 11y ago
  So true. Can you "teach" someone to be a world-class guitarist or songwriter? No you cannot...it takes a deep ambitious drive and 1000's of hours of self-study that are laced with frustration and the feeling that you are making no progress whatsoever. I have never taken a class that "educated" me about that particular process and how to overcome the internal resistances to it.
  - rmah 11y ago
    Perhaps not "world class"? But you can teach people to play guitar or write songs at a reasonably competent level.
- samfisher83 11y ago
  If this were the case companies like google Facebook etc. would be full of self taught programmer. In reality most of people there go to stanford, Harvard etc. aka the top schools. Just look at their executive bios or look through linkedin.
  - w1ntermute 11y ago
    You're assuming that going to Stanford or Harvard is mutually exclusive with being a self-taught programmer. I'd guess that the most successful Stanford or Harvard CS grads are self-taught coders (and also have great soft skills).
  - ken47 11y ago
    Just look at their executive bios or look through linkedin. Solid statistics.
- canthonytucci 11y ago
  I've never met a programmer who was any good that wasn't mostly self-educated. In order to be successful in the fluid world of development, one must always be learning, and the information is out there, for free, ripe for the picking. A good programmer is voracious, always wanting to know and understand more. People who wait around for a third party to educate them, on that third party's schedule appear to me as people who aren't passionate about whatever they are studying. I understand the structure of formal education and socialization with like-minded people has real value (I would not be half the person I am today were it not for the UVM computer science student association) , but it's a "nice-to-have", the drive is the only requirement for a programmer you'd want to work with.
- henrikschroder 11y ago
  I'm not so sure that self-teaching is the best way, I'm sure there are people that can be fantastic developers through education alone. But it's very clear that the key to being a developer is some sort of "talent" for making sense of how a computer works, and after decades of research we still can't tell if a person has this talent or not. It's an established fact that a large number of people who apply to CS studies just flunk out, because they lack this talent, and we don't know beforehand who is going to flunk out or not. So stuffing education CS programmes full of people, assuming everyone is going to magically become a great developer is a complete pipe-dream of people who think about employees as interchangeable resources. Reality doesn't work that way.
- Terr_ 11y ago
  Survivorship bias? The best programmers are self-taught because learning on your own is a tougher filter, both in terms of success and as a measure of personal interest. Meanwhile, the mediocre programmers who tried doing everything on their own are harder to count, either because they gave up or because they aren't notable/visible.
canthonytucci 11y ago
I'd suggest that you don't need a CS degree to teach high-school level programming. I'd suspect many existing high school teachers, if given a tour of the involved concepts and resources, would be able to lead a group of students through a programming course based around existing freely available materials. My reason being that IMHO exposure to what's possible with computers and access to machines with the tools for learning development is the only thing kids who are going to be decent programmers really need. My gut tells me kids who want to program and have the means are already are doing it, and the only ones we need to worry about are those without access to a decent computer at home. Kids who have these benefits but are too dim to google "how to make a computer game" or look up some tutorials on youtube should probably pursue other careers.
pc2g4d 11y ago
I'm not entirely convinced that CS is such a distinct skill set that the programmer shortage is really explained by there just not being enough programmer-type-people. Surely there are millions of other people with the capacity of becoming programmers who could be incented to learn to program.

by valine 11y ago

dbcurtis 11y ago

+1 insightful

w1ntermute 11y ago

CS is a discipline best self-taught. I'm not sure better education will solve anything. It'll just produce more mediocre engineers.

deathhand 11y ago
The CS thought process is self-taught. I've seen old women write out mathematical 'if' statements on paper and then ask me how to implement in Excel. Understanding data arrays is inherit. Knowing that they are called data arrays is something else entirely.
dmansen 11y ago
The answer to mediocre engineers is less education? Doesn't follow.
- pmarreck 11y ago
  Education is force-fed, extrinsic motivation. Self-education is self-fed, intrinsic motivation. There is an arguably significant difference in the quality of the outcomes.
  - UK-AL 11y ago
    Only crap education. Good education gives you cool things explore, and experienced people to discuss them with. If I was completely self-taught I would not have as strong algorithm skills, operating system implementation knowledge or compilers skills.
    - pmarreck 11y ago
      Part of self-teaching may include taking formal online coursework voluntarily. For example I'm currently halfway through https://www.coursera.org/learn/machine-learning https://www.coursera.org/learn/machine-learning
cubano 11y ago
So true. Can you "teach" someone to be a world-class guitarist or songwriter? No you cannot...it takes a deep ambitious drive and 1000's of hours of self-study that are laced with frustration and the feeling that you are making no progress whatsoever. I have never taken a class that "educated" me about that particular process and how to overcome the internal resistances to it.
- rmah 11y ago
  Perhaps not "world class"? But you can teach people to play guitar or write songs at a reasonably competent level.
samfisher83 11y ago
If this were the case companies like google Facebook etc. would be full of self taught programmer. In reality most of people there go to stanford, Harvard etc. aka the top schools. Just look at their executive bios or look through linkedin.
- w1ntermute 11y ago
  You're assuming that going to Stanford or Harvard is mutually exclusive with being a self-taught programmer. I'd guess that the most successful Stanford or Harvard CS grads are self-taught coders (and also have great soft skills).
- ken47 11y ago
  Just look at their executive bios or look through linkedin. Solid statistics.
canthonytucci 11y ago
I've never met a programmer who was any good that wasn't mostly self-educated. In order to be successful in the fluid world of development, one must always be learning, and the information is out there, for free, ripe for the picking. A good programmer is voracious, always wanting to know and understand more. People who wait around for a third party to educate them, on that third party's schedule appear to me as people who aren't passionate about whatever they are studying. I understand the structure of formal education and socialization with like-minded people has real value (I would not be half the person I am today were it not for the UVM computer science student association) , but it's a "nice-to-have", the drive is the only requirement for a programmer you'd want to work with.
henrikschroder 11y ago
I'm not so sure that self-teaching is the best way, I'm sure there are people that can be fantastic developers through education alone. But it's very clear that the key to being a developer is some sort of "talent" for making sense of how a computer works, and after decades of research we still can't tell if a person has this talent or not. It's an established fact that a large number of people who apply to CS studies just flunk out, because they lack this talent, and we don't know beforehand who is going to flunk out or not. So stuffing education CS programmes full of people, assuming everyone is going to magically become a great developer is a complete pipe-dream of people who think about employees as interchangeable resources. Reality doesn't work that way.
Terr_ 11y ago
Survivorship bias? The best programmers are self-taught because learning on your own is a tougher filter, both in terms of success and as a measure of personal interest. Meanwhile, the mediocre programmers who tried doing everything on their own are harder to count, either because they gave up or because they aren't notable/visible.

canthonytucci 11y ago

I'd suggest that you don't need a CS degree to teach high-school level programming. I'd suspect many existing high school teachers, if given a tour of the involved concepts and resources, would be able to lead a group of students through a programming course based around existing freely available materials. My reason being that IMHO exposure to what's possible with computers and access to machines with the tools for learning development is the only thing kids who are going to be decent programmers really need. My gut tells me kids who want to program and have the means are already are doing it, and the only ones we need to worry about are those without access to a decent computer at home. Kids who have these benefits but are too dim to google "how to make a computer game" or look up some tutorials on youtube should probably pursue other careers.

pc2g4d 11y ago

I'm not entirely convinced that CS is such a distinct skill set that the programmer shortage is really explained by there just not being enough programmer-type-people. Surely there are millions of other people with the capacity of becoming programmers who could be incented to learn to program.