5 ms·

Yep, me too, midwest huge insurance company. From what I've seen, there are very few people in mid to upper management that think developers are anything more t

by bdavisx 11y ago

Yep, me too, midwest huge insurance company. From what I've seen, there are very few people in mid to upper management that think developers are anything more than a cog in the machine (and only 1 who's ever stated that 'publicly') - I'm looking to leave after 11 years - I've given up on it changing.

wdmeldon 11y ago
Wow. 11 years before you gave up on them changing. That's both impressive and depressing. I lasted about 2 and half years last place I worked.
- stuxnet79 11y ago
  2 and a half years also feels too long to me. But in order to not look like a "job hopper" is that the standard time I should expect to stay at a place or is 1 year good enough.
  - wdmeldon 11y ago
    It was too long but of course I didn't realize it at the time. From what I've gathered, as long as it isn't with every job, you don't have to stay that long. But don't take my career advice. I only really know what not to do at this point.
- bdavisx 11y ago
  I moved around in the company, trying to find someplace that was different (e.g. more like a software company) - and I finally did, about 4.5 years ago. The department was outside of the official IT department, because we are vital to the business and have legal reasons to need to move much faster. It was good for a couple of years, but recently, the area I'm in has been getting more like the IT department I left (they are pushing me and other leads to start taking on more "leadership" responsibilities - meaning management type crap, not lead developer) - so I think it's time to move on. And I should mention that I've looked for other jobs in the area (trying to stay local because of family) - and almost no one pays as good as where I'm at. I'm making a bit above average according to Glassdoor (for my location).
napoleond 11y ago
Where are you looking to go? Are you interested in working remotely? My company is hiring -- dave.noel@sitedocs.com
cableshaft 11y ago
I tried the midwest large insurance company job, and it was not a fun experience. I often had full weeks where I was waiting on something from other slow-moving departments and had literally nothing to do, and my boss knew and didn't really care, although I still had to show up and sit in my desk for eight hours a day. And I was a developer but had to ask permission and make a case for every single program I wanted to install to help do my job, which isn't necessarily bad (there are understandable security concerns with downloaded software from the internet), except when Net Ops rates it a low priority and takes weeks to give you the permission. I eventually just stopped asking. The atmosphere was also the most subdued environment I've ever been in. Most people not talking to or acknowledging each other unless their cubes were near, very few jokes, I almost got the feeling I'd get in trouble if I ever showed exuberance. Not that I ever felt like it anyway. The lighting didn't help with that either, since we were in a room with very little natural light and soft florescent lighting that made it difficult for me to even stay awake there. I did learn some new things there, and people were polite and friendly, so it wasn't all bad, but I'd never go back.
- stuxnet79 11y ago
  > The atmosphere was also the most subdued environment I've ever been in. Most people not talking to or acknowledging each other unless their cubes were near, very few jokes, I almost got the feeling I'd get in trouble if I ever showed exuberance. I know exactly what you mean! It is suffocating! Currently struggling with this right now. I can't stand it because it just feels so fake and phony. To me work is easier and more manageable when you are getting along with colleagues, not when it is overly formal, and corporate, etc. Idk, that's just my perspective.
  - cableshaft 11y ago
    Yeah, fake and phony, I definitely got that feeling. Like people were putting on a mask the entire time they were there. I don't even mind corporate necessarily, as long as it's relaxed. My current place people will talk about pretty much whatever, help each other out, tease each other about things, the boss will join us for lunch and talk about Star Wars and Deadpool, team leads are willing to admit that they can make mistakes, you feel like you can be more open and honest around your superiors, no one gasps or blinks an eye when you casually curse, etc. And yet it's not quite no-holds-barred like a previous job that erupted into nerf gun battles and openly (but not seriously) insulting each other on an almost daily basis.
jrs235 11y ago
As stated several times over the years, particularly on HN and by patio11 (edit: or was it Joel on Software? Perhaps both?), work for a profit center not a cost center. The internal software to run insurance companies is a cost center. It is in managements interest to reduce and keep costs down... that's detrimental to what you do. Working on a software product or Saas is a profit center. What you are making is to be sold. It's an asset. An asset management wants to make as valuable and profitable as possible so they are willing to invest in it. That works to your favor if you're developing that asset.
- OpenDrapery 11y ago
  Yeah, hear ya. Anyone know of any opportunities that match this criteria (profit center) in the Columbus, OH area? I've recently moved here for family reasons, and while there seem to be plenty of opportunities, they are all within the banking, healthcare, insurance verticals, or they are shrouded in mystery behind middleman tech agents. I have not found an easy way to do a search on indeed.com to bring the "profit center" jobs to the forefront.
  - jrs235 11y ago
    The majority of "profit center" software and software jobs are on the west coast surrounded around the tech giants and the bustling startups. I believe Austin Texas has a few and so does New York. As for the rest of the country... it's hit or miss. Some of the large(r) Midwest cities will have a software company that has "profit center" software and jobs. I'm further West than you but I know some companies in Madison, Des Moines, La Crosse, Rochester, Decorah exist. Being in smaller markets they don't tend to pay as well $ for $ but when you factor in COLA and QOL they are hard to beat. I know some people that live near me that work remotely for Walmart Labs and make a substantially lot more money. Appleton/Green Bay/Wausau have a lot of insurance software jobs too... the type we seem to want to avoid. I'm not sure what the rust belt has to offer. The best place to look for "profit center" positions is the monthly "Who's Hiring on HN" lists and if you can't/don't want to relocate look for ones that allow remoting. Good luck.
- lgieron 11y ago

by bdavisx 11y ago

wdmeldon 11y ago

Wow. 11 years before you gave up on them changing. That's both impressive and depressing. I lasted about 2 and half years last place I worked.

stuxnet79 11y ago
2 and a half years also feels too long to me. But in order to not look like a "job hopper" is that the standard time I should expect to stay at a place or is 1 year good enough.
- wdmeldon 11y ago
  It was too long but of course I didn't realize it at the time. From what I've gathered, as long as it isn't with every job, you don't have to stay that long. But don't take my career advice. I only really know what not to do at this point.
bdavisx 11y ago
I moved around in the company, trying to find someplace that was different (e.g. more like a software company) - and I finally did, about 4.5 years ago. The department was outside of the official IT department, because we are vital to the business and have legal reasons to need to move much faster. It was good for a couple of years, but recently, the area I'm in has been getting more like the IT department I left (they are pushing me and other leads to start taking on more "leadership" responsibilities - meaning management type crap, not lead developer) - so I think it's time to move on. And I should mention that I've looked for other jobs in the area (trying to stay local because of family) - and almost no one pays as good as where I'm at. I'm making a bit above average according to Glassdoor (for my location).

napoleond 11y ago

Where are you looking to go? Are you interested in working remotely? My company is hiring -- dave.noel@sitedocs.com

cableshaft 11y ago

I tried the midwest large insurance company job, and it was not a fun experience. I often had full weeks where I was waiting on something from other slow-moving departments and had literally nothing to do, and my boss knew and didn't really care, although I still had to show up and sit in my desk for eight hours a day. And I was a developer but had to ask permission and make a case for every single program I wanted to install to help do my job, which isn't necessarily bad (there are understandable security concerns with downloaded software from the internet), except when Net Ops rates it a low priority and takes weeks to give you the permission. I eventually just stopped asking. The atmosphere was also the most subdued environment I've ever been in. Most people not talking to or acknowledging each other unless their cubes were near, very few jokes, I almost got the feeling I'd get in trouble if I ever showed exuberance. Not that I ever felt like it anyway. The lighting didn't help with that either, since we were in a room with very little natural light and soft florescent lighting that made it difficult for me to even stay awake there. I did learn some new things there, and people were polite and friendly, so it wasn't all bad, but I'd never go back.

stuxnet79 11y ago
> The atmosphere was also the most subdued environment I've ever been in. Most people not talking to or acknowledging each other unless their cubes were near, very few jokes, I almost got the feeling I'd get in trouble if I ever showed exuberance. I know exactly what you mean! It is suffocating! Currently struggling with this right now. I can't stand it because it just feels so fake and phony. To me work is easier and more manageable when you are getting along with colleagues, not when it is overly formal, and corporate, etc. Idk, that's just my perspective.
- cableshaft 11y ago
  Yeah, fake and phony, I definitely got that feeling. Like people were putting on a mask the entire time they were there. I don't even mind corporate necessarily, as long as it's relaxed. My current place people will talk about pretty much whatever, help each other out, tease each other about things, the boss will join us for lunch and talk about Star Wars and Deadpool, team leads are willing to admit that they can make mistakes, you feel like you can be more open and honest around your superiors, no one gasps or blinks an eye when you casually curse, etc. And yet it's not quite no-holds-barred like a previous job that erupted into nerf gun battles and openly (but not seriously) insulting each other on an almost daily basis.

jrs235 11y ago

As stated several times over the years, particularly on HN and by patio11 (edit: or was it Joel on Software? Perhaps both?), work for a profit center not a cost center. The internal software to run insurance companies is a cost center. It is in managements interest to reduce and keep costs down... that's detrimental to what you do. Working on a software product or Saas is a profit center. What you are making is to be sold. It's an asset. An asset management wants to make as valuable and profitable as possible so they are willing to invest in it. That works to your favor if you're developing that asset.

OpenDrapery 11y ago
Yeah, hear ya. Anyone know of any opportunities that match this criteria (profit center) in the Columbus, OH area? I've recently moved here for family reasons, and while there seem to be plenty of opportunities, they are all within the banking, healthcare, insurance verticals, or they are shrouded in mystery behind middleman tech agents. I have not found an easy way to do a search on indeed.com to bring the "profit center" jobs to the forefront.
- jrs235 11y ago
  The majority of "profit center" software and software jobs are on the west coast surrounded around the tech giants and the bustling startups. I believe Austin Texas has a few and so does New York. As for the rest of the country... it's hit or miss. Some of the large(r) Midwest cities will have a software company that has "profit center" software and jobs. I'm further West than you but I know some companies in Madison, Des Moines, La Crosse, Rochester, Decorah exist. Being in smaller markets they don't tend to pay as well $ for $ but when you factor in COLA and QOL they are hard to beat. I know some people that live near me that work remotely for Walmart Labs and make a substantially lot more money. Appleton/Green Bay/Wausau have a lot of insurance software jobs too... the type we seem to want to avoid. I'm not sure what the rust belt has to offer. The best place to look for "profit center" positions is the monthly "Who's Hiring on HN" lists and if you can't/don't want to relocate look for ones that allow remoting. Good luck.
lgieron 11y ago