5 ms·

But surely they're not closing off the pc platform, just potentially restricting what can happen on their OS. You can still use PCs with linux without any lock

But surely they're not closing off the pc platform, just potentially restricting what can happen on their OS. You can still use PCs with linux without any lock in. Long gone are the days when Microsoft was a monopoly on client computing devices, these days we have linux, Mac osx, chrome OS, Android, steamOS and iOS. Several of these other platforms are already closed to one degree on another, with iOS probably being the most restrictive, so I'm not sure I see Microsoft as being dominent enough to warrant a claim of monopoly power any more

frik 11y ago
They are, PC manufacturer have to lock down the hardware for Win10. Good luck trying to install Linux/FreeBSD/etc on a new notebook. Microsoft is using their desktop monopoly and OEM cartel to lock down the platform. reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_In...
- raesene2 11y ago
  I have bought and installed linux on laptops from hp and Lenovo with no problems at all. Also you can buy laptops from Dell with linux pre-installed. Can you provide any citations for the assertion that Microsoft are currently (2016) forcing hardware companies to tie their products to Windows?
  - frik 11y ago
    Can you cite your "no problem at all"? That statement is just wrong, if the hardware shipped with Win8/8.1/10 pre installed. Such devices come with a locked down UEFI, the "legacy" BIOS is deactivated and often hidden behind shortcuts that one has to press during boot. Also it depends if you bought a business or consumer hardware.
    - raesene2 11y ago
      Of course I can as it was my personal experience. On the other hand you made a general assertion about their actions which really needs a citation. Reinstalling an os is a technical task, which requires some knowledge to do effectively. Having been doing this for 25 years or so, I can safely say it's easier now than it used to be...
      - frik 11y ago
        Good for you. You could provide photos of your UEFI settings and or BIOS settings, and of course you had to change several of them and hold down specific buttons. And no, it was easier before Microsoft introduced Windows 8 and 10. It was very easy, just insert a CD/DVD with a boot-image. Read about UEFI and "secure boot" came along with Windows 8: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_In...
        raesene2 11y ago
        It's never a good sign for your argument when you have to resort to ad hominem attacks.... No real point I trying to respond if that's your track but remember this is just a discussion on a website, no need to start throwing around personal accusations, for which you have no evidence. Might I suggest you take a break from the keyboard, perhaps go for a nice walk in the fresh air:)
    - nekopa 11y ago
      I've been happily running Xubuntu on an Acer gaming laptop with UEFI with no problems. I did it after my Win 10 upgrade killed my SSD. Yes, I had to do a quick Google search to find out how to get into my legacy bios but if you are going to install a Linux distribution you should definitely be able to find this info no problem.
      - CalRobert 11y ago
        I believe the concern is that the requirement for manufactures to allow disabling UEFI has been dropped, so new hardware may not make that possible.
  - ryao 11y ago
    Some broken UEFI BIOS refuse to do DOS boot when GPT partitioning is used. It can give the appearance of requiring Windows when you are installing a Linux distribution that does not support EFI boot, but uses GPT partitioning. My guess is that might be causing people to think such things.
speeder 11y ago
I needed to buy a computer some years ago. My favourite OS is Fedora. First thing, is I find out that all manufacturers only were selling non-Windows machines at a significant markup, the only way this made sense to me is if Microsoft is actively bribing them (ie: "selling" windows for a negative price). So I thought, I would just buy this cool Windows 8 laptop, and remove Windows 8, since it is crap anyway. Well... no, I am still using that Windows 8 (now 8.1, after it forcefully upgraded itself), because for some reason (maybe a UEFI bug) I can't make anything that ins't Windows that came installed to boot, not even Windows install discs boot, much less Linux discs, and yes, I did disabled SecureBoot, but it still blocks everything except Windows 8 itself from booting (this mean I can't use Memtestx86 either) If that ins't closed, I dunno what is.
- raesene2 11y ago
  So your pc or fedora has a bug which prevents you changing os and it then follows that Microsoft have a monopoly power in PCs... Sorry I don't quite think that follows
  - mordocai 11y ago
    Nitpicking, but the problem as they described is definitely not fedora. It is definitely a PC problem. The main problem here is that Windows is such a monopoly that the PC manufacturer didn't care to make sure anything else worked.
    - arien 11y ago
      Just like mobile developers don't bother making Windows Apps because they consider the % of users is too low. In other words, this manufacturer probably didn't care because the % of users who would use it for something other than the standard config is too small to justify the time spent outside that standard. I don't think this specific case can be called monopoly. You can install Linux and other stuff fine in most laptops, this looks like an isolated case. I mean, you can even install Ubuntu on a Surface Pro and Surface Book (proprietary MS hardware).
- 11y ago
obsurveyor 11y ago
I think it's a different story when it's been there from the beginning and developers choose to join your platform versus leveraging your huge already captured market.
- raesene2 11y ago
  So a company who doesn't have a monopoly should be restricted from changing their product because it didn't use to be that way.... Seems a bit harsh to me... if Microsoft still occupied the same kind of dominent position they did 15 years ago it would be a different story, but now there are a lot more viable alternatives
  - obsurveyor 11y ago
    The laws on monopolies don't see it that way and Microsoft still has a huge one in the computing space, despite the in-roads made in the past few years.
    - raesene2 11y ago
      Actually you are , AFAIK, incorrect there. Microsoft's consent decree from their antitrust trial expired in 2011/2012.

frik 11y ago

They are, PC manufacturer have to lock down the hardware for Win10. Good luck trying to install Linux/FreeBSD/etc on a new notebook. Microsoft is using their desktop monopoly and OEM cartel to lock down the platform. reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_In...

raesene2 11y ago
I have bought and installed linux on laptops from hp and Lenovo with no problems at all. Also you can buy laptops from Dell with linux pre-installed. Can you provide any citations for the assertion that Microsoft are currently (2016) forcing hardware companies to tie their products to Windows?
- frik 11y ago
  Can you cite your "no problem at all"? That statement is just wrong, if the hardware shipped with Win8/8.1/10 pre installed. Such devices come with a locked down UEFI, the "legacy" BIOS is deactivated and often hidden behind shortcuts that one has to press during boot. Also it depends if you bought a business or consumer hardware.
  - raesene2 11y ago
    Of course I can as it was my personal experience. On the other hand you made a general assertion about their actions which really needs a citation. Reinstalling an os is a technical task, which requires some knowledge to do effectively. Having been doing this for 25 years or so, I can safely say it's easier now than it used to be...
    - frik 11y ago
      Good for you. You could provide photos of your UEFI settings and or BIOS settings, and of course you had to change several of them and hold down specific buttons. And no, it was easier before Microsoft introduced Windows 8 and 10. It was very easy, just insert a CD/DVD with a boot-image. Read about UEFI and "secure boot" came along with Windows 8: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_In...
      - raesene2 11y ago
        It's never a good sign for your argument when you have to resort to ad hominem attacks.... No real point I trying to respond if that's your track but remember this is just a discussion on a website, no need to start throwing around personal accusations, for which you have no evidence. Might I suggest you take a break from the keyboard, perhaps go for a nice walk in the fresh air:)
  - nekopa 11y ago
    I've been happily running Xubuntu on an Acer gaming laptop with UEFI with no problems. I did it after my Win 10 upgrade killed my SSD. Yes, I had to do a quick Google search to find out how to get into my legacy bios but if you are going to install a Linux distribution you should definitely be able to find this info no problem.
    - CalRobert 11y ago
      I believe the concern is that the requirement for manufactures to allow disabling UEFI has been dropped, so new hardware may not make that possible.
- ryao 11y ago
  Some broken UEFI BIOS refuse to do DOS boot when GPT partitioning is used. It can give the appearance of requiring Windows when you are installing a Linux distribution that does not support EFI boot, but uses GPT partitioning. My guess is that might be causing people to think such things.

speeder 11y ago

I needed to buy a computer some years ago. My favourite OS is Fedora. First thing, is I find out that all manufacturers only were selling non-Windows machines at a significant markup, the only way this made sense to me is if Microsoft is actively bribing them (ie: "selling" windows for a negative price). So I thought, I would just buy this cool Windows 8 laptop, and remove Windows 8, since it is crap anyway. Well... no, I am still using that Windows 8 (now 8.1, after it forcefully upgraded itself), because for some reason (maybe a UEFI bug) I can't make anything that ins't Windows that came installed to boot, not even Windows install discs boot, much less Linux discs, and yes, I did disabled SecureBoot, but it still blocks everything except Windows 8 itself from booting (this mean I can't use Memtestx86 either) If that ins't closed, I dunno what is.

raesene2 11y ago
So your pc or fedora has a bug which prevents you changing os and it then follows that Microsoft have a monopoly power in PCs... Sorry I don't quite think that follows
- mordocai 11y ago
  Nitpicking, but the problem as they described is definitely not fedora. It is definitely a PC problem. The main problem here is that Windows is such a monopoly that the PC manufacturer didn't care to make sure anything else worked.
  - arien 11y ago
    Just like mobile developers don't bother making Windows Apps because they consider the % of users is too low. In other words, this manufacturer probably didn't care because the % of users who would use it for something other than the standard config is too small to justify the time spent outside that standard. I don't think this specific case can be called monopoly. You can install Linux and other stuff fine in most laptops, this looks like an isolated case. I mean, you can even install Ubuntu on a Surface Pro and Surface Book (proprietary MS hardware).
11y ago

obsurveyor 11y ago

I think it's a different story when it's been there from the beginning and developers choose to join your platform versus leveraging your huge already captured market.

raesene2 11y ago
So a company who doesn't have a monopoly should be restricted from changing their product because it didn't use to be that way.... Seems a bit harsh to me... if Microsoft still occupied the same kind of dominent position they did 15 years ago it would be a different story, but now there are a lot more viable alternatives
- obsurveyor 11y ago
  The laws on monopolies don't see it that way and Microsoft still has a huge one in the computing space, despite the in-roads made in the past few years.
  - raesene2 11y ago
    Actually you are , AFAIK, incorrect there. Microsoft's consent decree from their antitrust trial expired in 2011/2012.