6 ms·

My team does take-home project, a small problem to solve that should take at most a couple hours. It's the same problem for every candidate so we're judging the

My team does take-home project, a small problem to solve that should take at most a couple hours. It's the same problem for every candidate so we're judging them on common work. It's not real work, it's made up. In interviewing discussions in places like HN, there is enough pushback against this idea, which is a bit surprising to me. I thought a few hours work was reasonable when I was interviewing. But my point is that just this small bit of work seems already too big for many people, let alone working 10-20 hours a week moonlighting. It's cool that they pay for it, but that pay is pretty insignificant in the overall scheme of things. (Also, now you're not really interviewing, you're doing client work. Different relationship.) When I have tried moonlighting in the past I found the stress incommensurate with the additional income. So I don't think I would do it as an interview, personally. It sucks that companies take a risk during hiring. But I'm not really interested in making that my problem, as a job seeker.

sotojuan 11y ago
I think two hours for a small take-home project is reasonable. Otherwise the applicant would spend two hours in your offices anyway, right? More than two hours, though, and I can see the problem.
- logfromblammo 11y ago
  It would be acceptable if the results of the project were sufficient to make a hire/no-hire decision. If I do one two hour project, and either get an offer letter or polite refusal in response, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But no one does that. They would be fools if they did.
  - misthop 11y ago
    An anecdote is not data, but I actually did have this happen. I did a 15 minute phone chat talking about the job and a week later had a one hour online live coding session. Two weeks later, with no more contact I had a formal job offer letter in my inbox. The offer was above market rate, and the commentary in the email from the CEO said that the offer was a negotiating floor. I actually had to ask to fly into the office s(the job was remote) to meet the team and learn some more about the company and work itself. I ended up declining the job, and they told me that the offer would _stay open_. They even got in touch with me a year later (to the day) to see if I wanted to reconsider. This was all about a year and a half ago now.
ern 11y ago
You allude to a bigger problem: anyone outside the industry who looks at the hiring process for developers would be put off. I know anecdotally that the industry is struggling to get students interested in software development as a career, and good developers are loathe to leave their jobs. I don't blame either group. Would I want my kids to spend their careers being put through the wringer of multiple high-stakes interviews or be forced to moonlight in order to get jobs, something that gets progressively harder as people reach their thirties and gain extra responsibilities? No. Rather stay away from the field entirely and look for a more stable career.
- purringmeow 11y ago
  Reading HN is really weird for me. Everyone is talking about how the industry is struggling to find new people. Meanwhile, being in Central Europe, I almost can't find a junior position to even apply to! I am a 2nd year CS student looking for a web-dev job to get experience and learn new stuff and every ad I see requires a couple of years in the industry + knowledge of a huge amount of frameworks. From my viewpoint, there is no real need for beginner devs. Companies are looking for really experienced AND cheap programmers.
- draw_down 11y ago
  I don't disagree that we have our problems, but to me most industries seem worse to work in than ours. Not that we should stick up for ourselves but everything is terrible everywhere. Or you just don't get paid very much.
  - ern 11y ago
    I wonder what the lifetime earnings of a new software developer/engineer would be, compared to other careers, especially for those that turn out to be non-rock stars in the medium to long term, which would be most. I suspect that the great earnings initially would plateau and be overtaken by careers where time in the game and cumulative experience are primary drivers of experience.
RogerL 11y ago
It depends. I have so many job offer emails that I cannot reasonably answer them all. They all want to take over your life. Talk to me, then I'll schedule interviews for you at inconvenient times. What, you didn't look this random company up and memorize facts so you'll look eager? Tsk, tsk. Read these books on interviewing. Make a github account. Practice! Why don't you practice you miserable turd?! I'm just asking that you practice for a month before I'll talk to you. Drive to SOMA and take coffee! Interview at 7pm, today! Answer your emails! Do my project! Now! No, now! Right now! Don't you want this job you never heard of until I contacted you and tried to shove it down your throat? Take some time out of your day, you miserable slacker! Do my project! Now! Answer me! I've emailed you 4 times today, and left 3 voice mails! Answer me! Now! I effed up and didn't build a team, and are already 3 months behind, why aren't you doing my bidding??!! Now! Do it! How will I get rich if you don't do what I demand?! Do it! That's my inbox. Not too appealing. No. Now, okay, if you are doing absolutely fantastic, ground-breaking work, and I'd be rubbing elbows with industry leaders, and I am not otherwise in the market or trying to do eleventy seven other things simultaneously maybe I'll carve some time out for your project to prove myself worthy. But, you know, most jobs are jobs. If I play the interview game I can have a handful of job offers in a week (maybe not jobs I want to do, but that's a different story). Your team might be doing it right, but do I have optics into that? Probably not. If everything I've done in my life is not enough to convince you (generic you, not draw_down you) that I can program and solve your pedestrian problem, then I don't view me as being the problem here. So, if your take home thing is a 2 hour project, and is in lieu of a whiteboard grilling, then fine, sounds appealing to me. But only in context, because it suggests that you don't actually have any interest in measuring my skills, which go far beyond writing for loops. So, probably not a job for me, no harm, but you know, not appealing. Sell me, I'm not a supplicant. We'll figure out if we are a good match or not, no biggie. The reality is that the take home things are usually just yet one more requirement, one more hurdle, yet more time out of my life. And you do a few, it goes into a black hole, no one even responds, or you get a one sentence email from HR telling you piss off in the nicest way possible, and the motivation to do another goes into the toilet. Or the reverse happens. You do really well, they bring you in, throw some brain teaser programming problem on a whiteboard, your mind goes blorp, and suddenly everyone is being aggressive and scowling, or staring at their phones, instead of talking to you. Oy vey. I'm sure it happens, but I have never had take home go well, where I didn't end up feeling like a piece of meat being graded by the USDA. And I never thought, once, "this is a really good measure of me - good performance on this reflects my on the job performance". Yes, I can write for loops, and fix bugs, but if that all the job is it must be really boring. What do you do? Why should I want to do it? How can I help? How can I grow? How can I help you grow? I have some ideas, are you interested in them? Let's build something! Nope, just for loops, and then iterate over this structure that should be recursed over (or vice versa) on a white board. I program. I get jobs done, every time. The code is maintainable. I try to up the bar, not maintain the status quo. I can talk to you about all of this, and if you have a medium IQ you can tell I am not bullshitting you. What more do you reasonably want? 8 weeks of contracting. Burn your vacation. Don't talk to your kids or wife, I'm trying to get rich here off your back. Work for me! Moonlight, and risk getting fired! Prove yourself worthy, because I have no judgement, and I'm terrified of making a decision! I'll string you along for months when you have all these other options. Nah.
mostlystatic 11y ago
One thing I find off-putting is when the project is the first stage of the interview process. It means the applicant has to invest a large amount of time upfront, while it's easy for the company to send the test over. I prefer at least having a phone interview upfront, which suggests that the company is willing to put in some effort.
logfromblammo 11y ago
Generally speaking, this is a turn off for me, because I want to see proportional investment by the employer in the hiring process. If I have to spend two hours doing made-up homework for you before you will even talk to me, I expect that you will then spend an equivalent amount of effort proving to me that your company is somewhere that I would like to work. If you are not willing to invest that amount of time, the whole point of the interview is to reach an arrangement wherein I give you time and you give me money, so you could pay me for those 2 hours instead. While I don't necessarily walk away from interviews that turn me off, every warning flag does add to the minimum offer amount I would be willing to accept from the employer. If you don't treat me with professional courtesy and respect during the interview, I am silently adding numbers in my head. If you act like I am the one wasting your time, I am probably adding $20000/year to my salary expectations. I would much rather moonlight for a few hours every week, while getting paid to do actual work, than spend even one hour doing a stupid toy homework problem that ends up being a great signal for the employer and a very poor one for me. It isn't a matter of whether the pay is significant for me, but whether the employer is making and demonstrating an effort to make the process an exchange between equals rather than a superior-inferior relationship.

sotojuan 11y ago

I think two hours for a small take-home project is reasonable. Otherwise the applicant would spend two hours in your offices anyway, right? More than two hours, though, and I can see the problem.

logfromblammo 11y ago
It would be acceptable if the results of the project were sufficient to make a hire/no-hire decision. If I do one two hour project, and either get an offer letter or polite refusal in response, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But no one does that. They would be fools if they did.
- misthop 11y ago
  An anecdote is not data, but I actually did have this happen. I did a 15 minute phone chat talking about the job and a week later had a one hour online live coding session. Two weeks later, with no more contact I had a formal job offer letter in my inbox. The offer was above market rate, and the commentary in the email from the CEO said that the offer was a negotiating floor. I actually had to ask to fly into the office s(the job was remote) to meet the team and learn some more about the company and work itself. I ended up declining the job, and they told me that the offer would _stay open_. They even got in touch with me a year later (to the day) to see if I wanted to reconsider. This was all about a year and a half ago now.

ern 11y ago

You allude to a bigger problem: anyone outside the industry who looks at the hiring process for developers would be put off. I know anecdotally that the industry is struggling to get students interested in software development as a career, and good developers are loathe to leave their jobs. I don't blame either group. Would I want my kids to spend their careers being put through the wringer of multiple high-stakes interviews or be forced to moonlight in order to get jobs, something that gets progressively harder as people reach their thirties and gain extra responsibilities? No. Rather stay away from the field entirely and look for a more stable career.

purringmeow 11y ago
Reading HN is really weird for me. Everyone is talking about how the industry is struggling to find new people. Meanwhile, being in Central Europe, I almost can't find a junior position to even apply to! I am a 2nd year CS student looking for a web-dev job to get experience and learn new stuff and every ad I see requires a couple of years in the industry + knowledge of a huge amount of frameworks. From my viewpoint, there is no real need for beginner devs. Companies are looking for really experienced AND cheap programmers.
draw_down 11y ago
I don't disagree that we have our problems, but to me most industries seem worse to work in than ours. Not that we should stick up for ourselves but everything is terrible everywhere. Or you just don't get paid very much.
- ern 11y ago
  I wonder what the lifetime earnings of a new software developer/engineer would be, compared to other careers, especially for those that turn out to be non-rock stars in the medium to long term, which would be most. I suspect that the great earnings initially would plateau and be overtaken by careers where time in the game and cumulative experience are primary drivers of experience.

RogerL 11y ago

It depends. I have so many job offer emails that I cannot reasonably answer them all. They all want to take over your life. Talk to me, then I'll schedule interviews for you at inconvenient times. What, you didn't look this random company up and memorize facts so you'll look eager? Tsk, tsk. Read these books on interviewing. Make a github account. Practice! Why don't you practice you miserable turd?! I'm just asking that you practice for a month before I'll talk to you. Drive to SOMA and take coffee! Interview at 7pm, today! Answer your emails! Do my project! Now! No, now! Right now! Don't you want this job you never heard of until I contacted you and tried to shove it down your throat? Take some time out of your day, you miserable slacker! Do my project! Now! Answer me! I've emailed you 4 times today, and left 3 voice mails! Answer me! Now! I effed up and didn't build a team, and are already 3 months behind, why aren't you doing my bidding??!! Now! Do it! How will I get rich if you don't do what I demand?! Do it! That's my inbox. Not too appealing. No. Now, okay, if you are doing absolutely fantastic, ground-breaking work, and I'd be rubbing elbows with industry leaders, and I am not otherwise in the market or trying to do eleventy seven other things simultaneously maybe I'll carve some time out for your project to prove myself worthy. But, you know, most jobs are jobs. If I play the interview game I can have a handful of job offers in a week (maybe not jobs I want to do, but that's a different story). Your team might be doing it right, but do I have optics into that? Probably not. If everything I've done in my life is not enough to convince you (generic you, not draw_down you) that I can program and solve your pedestrian problem, then I don't view me as being the problem here. So, if your take home thing is a 2 hour project, and is in lieu of a whiteboard grilling, then fine, sounds appealing to me. But only in context, because it suggests that you don't actually have any interest in measuring my skills, which go far beyond writing for loops. So, probably not a job for me, no harm, but you know, not appealing. Sell me, I'm not a supplicant. We'll figure out if we are a good match or not, no biggie. The reality is that the take home things are usually just yet one more requirement, one more hurdle, yet more time out of my life. And you do a few, it goes into a black hole, no one even responds, or you get a one sentence email from HR telling you piss off in the nicest way possible, and the motivation to do another goes into the toilet. Or the reverse happens. You do really well, they bring you in, throw some brain teaser programming problem on a whiteboard, your mind goes blorp, and suddenly everyone is being aggressive and scowling, or staring at their phones, instead of talking to you. Oy vey. I'm sure it happens, but I have never had take home go well, where I didn't end up feeling like a piece of meat being graded by the USDA. And I never thought, once, "this is a really good measure of me - good performance on this reflects my on the job performance". Yes, I can write for loops, and fix bugs, but if that all the job is it must be really boring. What do you do? Why should I want to do it? How can I help? How can I grow? How can I help you grow? I have some ideas, are you interested in them? Let's build something! Nope, just for loops, and then iterate over this structure that should be recursed over (or vice versa) on a white board. I program. I get jobs done, every time. The code is maintainable. I try to up the bar, not maintain the status quo. I can talk to you about all of this, and if you have a medium IQ you can tell I am not bullshitting you. What more do you reasonably want? 8 weeks of contracting. Burn your vacation. Don't talk to your kids or wife, I'm trying to get rich here off your back. Work for me! Moonlight, and risk getting fired! Prove yourself worthy, because I have no judgement, and I'm terrified of making a decision! I'll string you along for months when you have all these other options. Nah.

mostlystatic 11y ago

One thing I find off-putting is when the project is the first stage of the interview process. It means the applicant has to invest a large amount of time upfront, while it's easy for the company to send the test over. I prefer at least having a phone interview upfront, which suggests that the company is willing to put in some effort.

logfromblammo 11y ago

Generally speaking, this is a turn off for me, because I want to see proportional investment by the employer in the hiring process. If I have to spend two hours doing made-up homework for you before you will even talk to me, I expect that you will then spend an equivalent amount of effort proving to me that your company is somewhere that I would like to work. If you are not willing to invest that amount of time, the whole point of the interview is to reach an arrangement wherein I give you time and you give me money, so you could pay me for those 2 hours instead. While I don't necessarily walk away from interviews that turn me off, every warning flag does add to the minimum offer amount I would be willing to accept from the employer. If you don't treat me with professional courtesy and respect during the interview, I am silently adding numbers in my head. If you act like I am the one wasting your time, I am probably adding $20000/year to my salary expectations. I would much rather moonlight for a few hours every week, while getting paid to do actual work, than spend even one hour doing a stupid toy homework problem that ends up being a great signal for the employer and a very poor one for me. It isn't a matter of whether the pay is significant for me, but whether the employer is making and demonstrating an effort to make the process an exchange between equals rather than a superior-inferior relationship.