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> I just do not understand people who cheat on games. I think they have a fundamentally different personality type: sportsman vs. gamesman. Sportsmanship valu

> I just do not understand people who cheat on games. I think they have a fundamentally different personality type: sportsman vs. gamesman. Sportsmanship values honor and conduct; gamesmanship values winning. It seems that the highest levels of competition reward gamesmanship over sportsmanship, perhaps unsurprisingly. There is a culture of gamesmanship, and gamesmen have better outcomes. Competitions where this seems to be the case include: * auto racing * football (world) * football (american) * cycling * fighting (MMA, boxing) And I'm sure plenty of others. These mottos are prevalent: * If you're not cheating, you're not trying * It's not cheating if you don't get caught

eric_h 11y ago
That's a fair point. In the game of pool gamesmanship has a long history, though in that context it's called hustling. Of course, the game of pool has always had a history of gambling; the fact that we even call it pool is a reference to the betting pool. Still, even when I play a set for money I won't cheat because it makes me feel dirty. I guess I just can't reconcile the fact that when I win without cheating, I feel great as though I accomplished something (although obviously it's just a game). When I win by luck I don't get the same satisfaction as when I win by perfectly executing whatever plan I was trying to accomplish. I guess I'll just never understand the hustler's mindset; I'll never be a conman. As an aside, I think it's amusing that the term "hustle" means "do whatever it takes to get by", or just "give it all you've got" when it's meant, roughly, "undersell your actual skill level to fleece someone out of their money" for many decades in the pool world.
- RickHull 11y ago
  Regarding hustle, I see: > late 17th century (originally in the sense ‘shake, toss’): from Middle Dutch hutselen So I think it splits into the dice and gambling sense, where deception becomes a valuable skill. And also the "hustle and bustle" sense, as in a football coach yelling at his player to hustle.

eric_h 11y ago

That's a fair point. In the game of pool gamesmanship has a long history, though in that context it's called hustling. Of course, the game of pool has always had a history of gambling; the fact that we even call it pool is a reference to the betting pool. Still, even when I play a set for money I won't cheat because it makes me feel dirty. I guess I just can't reconcile the fact that when I win without cheating, I feel great as though I accomplished something (although obviously it's just a game). When I win by luck I don't get the same satisfaction as when I win by perfectly executing whatever plan I was trying to accomplish. I guess I'll just never understand the hustler's mindset; I'll never be a conman. As an aside, I think it's amusing that the term "hustle" means "do whatever it takes to get by", or just "give it all you've got" when it's meant, roughly, "undersell your actual skill level to fleece someone out of their money" for many decades in the pool world.

RickHull 11y ago
Regarding hustle, I see: > late 17th century (originally in the sense ‘shake, toss’): from Middle Dutch hutselen So I think it splits into the dice and gambling sense, where deception becomes a valuable skill. And also the "hustle and bustle" sense, as in a football coach yelling at his player to hustle.