4 ms·

I really have never understood the cheater's mentality, at least when it comes to these silly, artificial games we play. Yes, at the highest level of professio

by eric_h 11y ago

I really have never understood the cheater's mentality, at least when it comes to these silly, artificial games we play. Yes, at the highest level of professional sports, etc. I see a clear financial motive to cheat (cue reference to the amorality of corporations), but some subset of people cheat all the way down that hierarchy in sports/cards/etc. /slightly OT, but thematically in line, I think: I'm a rather avid amateur billiards player (there's no money in pool in the US anymore, not that I can even compete with the pros - I'm better at making money with a keyboard) and I routinely see a (admittedly small, probably around 1%, but unchanging as players come and go) percentage of amateur players that clearly, actively want to cheat as long as they can get away with it. The actual expected value for their cheating is terrible. I play in a couple of leagues where, if, by chance, you get first place, you'll get ~$1000, having paid ~$256 in table time (and 16 weeks of play) to get to that last match. It's just a game! Isn't the whole point, and fun, and glory of winning a game actually winning by the restrictions placed on you by the rules? I can beat Tiger Woods by hitting him in the temple with an icepick, but why? The rules are what make the game challenging. I guess I just don't get it, if I foul in a pool game I'll call myself on it, because if I didn't I wouldn't walk away from it thinking I won. I'd think I cheated and I would feel terrible about it. Reiterating my opening sentence, I just do not understand people who cheat on games.

RickHull 11y ago
> I just do not understand people who cheat on games. I think they have a fundamentally different personality type: sportsman vs. gamesman. Sportsmanship values honor and conduct; gamesmanship values winning. It seems that the highest levels of competition reward gamesmanship over sportsmanship, perhaps unsurprisingly. There is a culture of gamesmanship, and gamesmen have better outcomes. Competitions where this seems to be the case include: * auto racing * football (world) * football (american) * cycling * fighting (MMA, boxing) And I'm sure plenty of others. These mottos are prevalent: * If you're not cheating, you're not trying * It's not cheating if you don't get caught
- eric_h 11y ago
  That's a fair point. In the game of pool gamesmanship has a long history, though in that context it's called hustling. Of course, the game of pool has always had a history of gambling; the fact that we even call it pool is a reference to the betting pool. Still, even when I play a set for money I won't cheat because it makes me feel dirty. I guess I just can't reconcile the fact that when I win without cheating, I feel great as though I accomplished something (although obviously it's just a game). When I win by luck I don't get the same satisfaction as when I win by perfectly executing whatever plan I was trying to accomplish. I guess I'll just never understand the hustler's mindset; I'll never be a conman. As an aside, I think it's amusing that the term "hustle" means "do whatever it takes to get by", or just "give it all you've got" when it's meant, roughly, "undersell your actual skill level to fleece someone out of their money" for many decades in the pool world.
  - RickHull 11y ago
    Regarding hustle, I see: > late 17th century (originally in the sense ‘shake, toss’): from Middle Dutch hutselen So I think it splits into the dice and gambling sense, where deception becomes a valuable skill. And also the "hustle and bustle" sense, as in a football coach yelling at his player to hustle.
DrScump 11y ago
<I really have never understood the cheater's mentality> In this particular case, the incentive seemed to be that better performance resulted in recruitment to higher-compensated teams.
cdr 11y ago
There's as many motivations for cheating as there are for anything, though they do tend to fall in broad categories. Some enjoy the thrill of seeing how much they can get away with, some just want to win. Some like to feel smarter than everyone else in the room. Many repeat cheaters are habitual, they have a compulsion and couldn't stop no matter what the consequences were.
aidenn0 11y ago
What surprises me is how prevalent their cheating was; most of the cheaters described in this article are quite good even without cheating; if they cheated on say a single hand per round, they might easily get away with it while still getting a significant competitive advantage (in particular if they randomly arranged things some of the time that they weren't signaling), but this sounds like they cheated every single time they were North/South and the opponent was Declarer.

by eric_h 11y ago

RickHull 11y ago

> I just do not understand people who cheat on games. I think they have a fundamentally different personality type: sportsman vs. gamesman. Sportsmanship values honor and conduct; gamesmanship values winning. It seems that the highest levels of competition reward gamesmanship over sportsmanship, perhaps unsurprisingly. There is a culture of gamesmanship, and gamesmen have better outcomes. Competitions where this seems to be the case include: * auto racing * football (world) * football (american) * cycling * fighting (MMA, boxing) And I'm sure plenty of others. These mottos are prevalent: * If you're not cheating, you're not trying * It's not cheating if you don't get caught

eric_h 11y ago
That's a fair point. In the game of pool gamesmanship has a long history, though in that context it's called hustling. Of course, the game of pool has always had a history of gambling; the fact that we even call it pool is a reference to the betting pool. Still, even when I play a set for money I won't cheat because it makes me feel dirty. I guess I just can't reconcile the fact that when I win without cheating, I feel great as though I accomplished something (although obviously it's just a game). When I win by luck I don't get the same satisfaction as when I win by perfectly executing whatever plan I was trying to accomplish. I guess I'll just never understand the hustler's mindset; I'll never be a conman. As an aside, I think it's amusing that the term "hustle" means "do whatever it takes to get by", or just "give it all you've got" when it's meant, roughly, "undersell your actual skill level to fleece someone out of their money" for many decades in the pool world.
- RickHull 11y ago
  Regarding hustle, I see: > late 17th century (originally in the sense ‘shake, toss’): from Middle Dutch hutselen So I think it splits into the dice and gambling sense, where deception becomes a valuable skill. And also the "hustle and bustle" sense, as in a football coach yelling at his player to hustle.

DrScump 11y ago

<I really have never understood the cheater's mentality> In this particular case, the incentive seemed to be that better performance resulted in recruitment to higher-compensated teams.

cdr 11y ago

There's as many motivations for cheating as there are for anything, though they do tend to fall in broad categories. Some enjoy the thrill of seeing how much they can get away with, some just want to win. Some like to feel smarter than everyone else in the room. Many repeat cheaters are habitual, they have a compulsion and couldn't stop no matter what the consequences were.

aidenn0 11y ago

What surprises me is how prevalent their cheating was; most of the cheaters described in this article are quite good even without cheating; if they cheated on say a single hand per round, they might easily get away with it while still getting a significant competitive advantage (in particular if they randomly arranged things some of the time that they weren't signaling), but this sounds like they cheated every single time they were North/South and the opponent was Declarer.