4 ms·

> You may be right, but a good sign for whom, exactly? For the people who lost their jobs? For shareholders? For fans of IBM the company? For IBM. It's good wh

by dcwca 11y ago

> You may be right, but a good sign for whom, exactly? For the people who lost their jobs? For shareholders? For fans of IBM the company? For IBM. It's good when you consider the alternative where a great company is slowly destroyed and everyone loses their jobs.

TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
I'm finding it hard to understand how the current situation differs from that situation. Like so many other big corps, IBM did some questionable things because of bad management and got into avoidable trouble. Now the innocent employees - the ones who didn't get a chance to steer the ship - are being thrown into the ocean. In a sane world, those employees would sue the board for some of its decisions. Those decisions may have been good for the short term interests of the shareholders, but clearly they weren't good for the long term interests of the company, or of patient shareholders who took the long view. Bad management is a plague in tech. We've seen a long succession of big corps make the most incredibly surreal, bizarre, dysfunctional decisions, and then show wide-eyed "Who? Us?" surprise when layoffs become necessary because the corps crash into the rocks. The usual justification that "shareholders win" is bullshit. They don't. No one does, except sometimes - in the short term only - the bad management itself.
- rdtsc 11y ago
  > those employees would sue the board for some of its decisions. How does that even work? I understand if there is discrimination, or they didn't get paid for their work but sue them for betting on services for such a long time? Yeah, I don't see how that works. Moreover, didn't most of those employees make the same bet by getting hired to provide consulting services. Besides, employees are not the owners of the company (unless they are also major share holders). Shareholders can potentially sue, no doubt. But not sure about employees.
  - Spooky23 11y ago
    When you're at will, it doesn't. When you are covered by a collective bargaining agreement and contract, it happens all of the time. In my city, when the administration introduced unsafe conditions and unpopular schedule changes the firefighters union picketed the home of the mayor and fire chief, and successfully sued. A friend worked for a manufacturing company where the Union sued over chronic and egregious mismanagement. Unfortunately, the management wanted the company to fail and dragged things out until bankruptcy.
    - rdtsc 11y ago
      Wonder why more software jobs are not unionized? Hollywood and move industry has some of that. Teacher, pilots, firefighters do it.
      - Spooky23 11y ago
        There are downsides too. Some perceived, some real. Unions are all about tenure. When the shit hits the fan, the young people lose. Pay scale is generally based on tenure as well.
      - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
        This industry is full of libertarians, full-bore objectivists, "fuck you, got mine"-ists, and scads of people who think they're 10x engineers and don't want to be compared to the plebs.
        dang 11y ago
        You've posted many unsubstantive and/or inflammatory comments to HN. That's not what this site is for, so please stop doing it.

by dcwca 11y ago

TheOtherHobbes 11y ago

I'm finding it hard to understand how the current situation differs from that situation. Like so many other big corps, IBM did some questionable things because of bad management and got into avoidable trouble. Now the innocent employees - the ones who didn't get a chance to steer the ship - are being thrown into the ocean. In a sane world, those employees would sue the board for some of its decisions. Those decisions may have been good for the short term interests of the shareholders, but clearly they weren't good for the long term interests of the company, or of patient shareholders who took the long view. Bad management is a plague in tech. We've seen a long succession of big corps make the most incredibly surreal, bizarre, dysfunctional decisions, and then show wide-eyed "Who? Us?" surprise when layoffs become necessary because the corps crash into the rocks. The usual justification that "shareholders win" is bullshit. They don't. No one does, except sometimes - in the short term only - the bad management itself.

rdtsc 11y ago
> those employees would sue the board for some of its decisions. How does that even work? I understand if there is discrimination, or they didn't get paid for their work but sue them for betting on services for such a long time? Yeah, I don't see how that works. Moreover, didn't most of those employees make the same bet by getting hired to provide consulting services. Besides, employees are not the owners of the company (unless they are also major share holders). Shareholders can potentially sue, no doubt. But not sure about employees.
- Spooky23 11y ago
  When you're at will, it doesn't. When you are covered by a collective bargaining agreement and contract, it happens all of the time. In my city, when the administration introduced unsafe conditions and unpopular schedule changes the firefighters union picketed the home of the mayor and fire chief, and successfully sued. A friend worked for a manufacturing company where the Union sued over chronic and egregious mismanagement. Unfortunately, the management wanted the company to fail and dragged things out until bankruptcy.
  - rdtsc 11y ago
    Wonder why more software jobs are not unionized? Hollywood and move industry has some of that. Teacher, pilots, firefighters do it.
    - Spooky23 11y ago
      There are downsides too. Some perceived, some real. Unions are all about tenure. When the shit hits the fan, the young people lose. Pay scale is generally based on tenure as well.
    - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
      This industry is full of libertarians, full-bore objectivists, "fuck you, got mine"-ists, and scads of people who think they're 10x engineers and don't want to be compared to the plebs.
      - dang 11y ago
        You've posted many unsubstantive and/or inflammatory comments to HN. That's not what this site is for, so please stop doing it.