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I agree that the use of the 'engineer' vs 'developer' terms in his context was not important. What does irk me is that in real life, software developers who me

I agree that the use of the 'engineer' vs 'developer' terms in his context was not important. What does irk me is that in real life, software developers who meet the Etsy CTO's standard often can't call themselves engineers. In many countries, misrepresenting oneself as an engineer without accreditation is against the law! [1] In the U.S., there's no official occupational category for Software Engineer. It's just Software Developer (Applications), Software Developer (Systems), and Computer Programmer. It is possible to get accreditation (http://ncees.org/exams/pe-exam/ http://ncees.org/exams/pe-exam/, under Software), but it didn't appear very useful to me aside from being able to call yourself an Engineer. [1] http://www.canadianconsultingengineer.com/engineering/quebec-order-of-engineers-wins-legal-battle-with-microsoft/1000018197/ http://www.canadianconsultingengineer.com/engineering/quebec...

djcapelis 11y ago
I just want to point out that you can't become a P.E. in almost any jurisdiction just by taking a test. You have to complete a number of other requirements first.
lgunsch 11y ago
I'm curious why it irks you. There is actually software engineers. At the U of A, where I went, Software Engineering is separate than Computing Science. Software Engineering was run by the Engineering department, and they had the same rigours as the rest of engineering has. However, Computing Science was run by the Science department.
- daveguy 11y ago
  At the U of A? Could you ground that symbol, please?
  - lgunsch 11y ago
    University of Alberta, in Canada.
    - polysaturate 11y ago
      Ah ha! UofA means University of Arizona around here
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- msbarnett 11y ago
  Note that, even though you can get a Software Engineering degree from the U of A, your likelihood of ever qualifying for your PEng is next to nil. In 99.99% of software jobs in the Canadian or US job markets you're simply never going to be able to accumulate enough eligible hours in your 6 year EIT eligibility period, because of the way APEGA defines things. Software jobs where you're supervised by a P.Eng., as required by APEGA, are likewise virtually unheard of.
  - auxym 11y ago
    In Quebec, programming is not considered an engineer-reserved task and therefore experience cannot be used towards getting the PE. In practice, it means that even thoug there is such a thing as software engineering degrees (most universities offer it), no graduate ever becomes an engineer. My opinion (as a jr mechanical engineer) is that the whole law is a bit outdated and seems to be geared 100% to civil engineers who actually need to stamp drawings.
    - msbarnett 11y ago
      > In Quebec, programming is not considered an engineer-reserved task and therefore experience cannot be used towards getting the PE. In practice, it means that even thoug there is such a thing as software engineering degrees (most universities offer it), no graduate ever becomes an engineer. APEGA has essentially the same rule in Alberta. That's what makes it impossible to log enough eligible hours to qualify for a P.Eng. It may well be the same in all provinces. Consequently, although APEGA insists that only Professional Engineers can use the title "Software Engineer", they simultaneously make it impossible for anyone to ever use that title in practice. There's been at least one court case about it that I can recall.
      - slavik81 11y ago
        APEGA accepted my work experience record without issue, and I don't think it was a problem for anyone I worked with. Maybe that's because I worked at an unusually engineering-heavy shop? The software was rigorously tested for safety reasons, and a P.Eng. had to sign off on each release. It's reasonably common for engineering grads of any speciality to simply end up working somewhere they don't need a P.Eng. While it might be nice if that were less common for Software Engineers, a P.Eng. must stand behind their work. Qualified candidates should show they worked in a manner that made an existing engineer comfortable ok'ing their work. That may not be common, but it's fundamental to the process.
- vram22 11y ago
  Software engineering is a separate degree from Computer Science or Computer Engineering in (at least some) Canadian univs. Source: A Canadian client of mine.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

djcapelis 11y ago

I just want to point out that you can't become a P.E. in almost any jurisdiction just by taking a test. You have to complete a number of other requirements first.

lgunsch 11y ago

I'm curious why it irks you. There is actually software engineers. At the U of A, where I went, Software Engineering is separate than Computing Science. Software Engineering was run by the Engineering department, and they had the same rigours as the rest of engineering has. However, Computing Science was run by the Science department.

daveguy 11y ago
At the U of A? Could you ground that symbol, please?
- lgunsch 11y ago
  University of Alberta, in Canada.
  - polysaturate 11y ago
    Ah ha! UofA means University of Arizona around here
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
msbarnett 11y ago
Note that, even though you can get a Software Engineering degree from the U of A, your likelihood of ever qualifying for your PEng is next to nil. In 99.99% of software jobs in the Canadian or US job markets you're simply never going to be able to accumulate enough eligible hours in your 6 year EIT eligibility period, because of the way APEGA defines things. Software jobs where you're supervised by a P.Eng., as required by APEGA, are likewise virtually unheard of.
- auxym 11y ago
  In Quebec, programming is not considered an engineer-reserved task and therefore experience cannot be used towards getting the PE. In practice, it means that even thoug there is such a thing as software engineering degrees (most universities offer it), no graduate ever becomes an engineer. My opinion (as a jr mechanical engineer) is that the whole law is a bit outdated and seems to be geared 100% to civil engineers who actually need to stamp drawings.
  - msbarnett 11y ago
    > In Quebec, programming is not considered an engineer-reserved task and therefore experience cannot be used towards getting the PE. In practice, it means that even thoug there is such a thing as software engineering degrees (most universities offer it), no graduate ever becomes an engineer. APEGA has essentially the same rule in Alberta. That's what makes it impossible to log enough eligible hours to qualify for a P.Eng. It may well be the same in all provinces. Consequently, although APEGA insists that only Professional Engineers can use the title "Software Engineer", they simultaneously make it impossible for anyone to ever use that title in practice. There's been at least one court case about it that I can recall.
    - slavik81 11y ago
      APEGA accepted my work experience record without issue, and I don't think it was a problem for anyone I worked with. Maybe that's because I worked at an unusually engineering-heavy shop? The software was rigorously tested for safety reasons, and a P.Eng. had to sign off on each release. It's reasonably common for engineering grads of any speciality to simply end up working somewhere they don't need a P.Eng. While it might be nice if that were less common for Software Engineers, a P.Eng. must stand behind their work. Qualified candidates should show they worked in a manner that made an existing engineer comfortable ok'ing their work. That may not be common, but it's fundamental to the process.
vram22 11y ago
Software engineering is a separate degree from Computer Science or Computer Engineering in (at least some) Canadian univs. Source: A Canadian client of mine.

deleted 11y ago

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