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I like the idea of "mandatory paternity leave", to make up for the biological asymmetry. Even if you have a stereotypical breadwinner/housewife relationship, y
by RodericDay 11y ago
I like the idea of "mandatory paternity leave", to make up for the biological asymmetry.
Even if you have a stereotypical breadwinner/housewife relationship, you are legally mandated to take time off, even if you don't want to. That way you avoid the "you're allowed to take paternal leave, but real go-getters don't!" game altogether.
edit: The way I see it, the responses just prove my point. "This would just make people discriminate against x!". That's exactly why it needs to be mandatory, affecting more people, so the issue doesn't become invisible based on it affecting only women.
- Lawtonfogle 11y agoThat would go a long way to correct for differences resulting from maternal leave, but there would still be issues such as single people, and especially single men, being favored (since it is rare for them to have a child who they must then take mandatory leave to care for).
- brongondwana 11y agoIt would definitely favour gay men, though they could still adopt and take paternity leave.
- Lawtonfogle 11y agoI remember reading that gay men suffer a penalty to straight men while gay women have a boost compared to straight women. I wonder if that is related child care expectations when they do adopt children.
- ahoy 11y agoNo doubt you're correct. It's not a simple issue to fully resolve, but there is some seemingly low-hanging fruit to grab for.
- mrrrgn 11y agoWe already suffer from declining birthrates in the west. Your solution would make not having a child the best choice for "go-getters."
- iends 11y agoIsn't that already the case?
- RodericDay 11y agoMy solution may not be optimal, but the status quo is "male go-getter with supportive female companion" as standard model of coupling. If we have to deal with declining birthrates while we figure out a more fair and sane arrangement, that doesn't pit family building against professional success, I'm down.
- tomp 11y ago> male go-getter with supportive female companion Do you have any objective reasons why this is suboptimal? Maybe we should go the other way; for example in the Netherlands, many women (with children) choose to work part-time (because they can). So maybe the "status quo" is by choice.
- RodericDay 11y agoMaybe it's a biological choice, maybe it's cultural and social momentum from hundreds of years of forcing gender roles legally and violently. Impossible to tell with our current experimental setup. I lean towards the latter though.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- thescribe 11y agoThe precautionary principle would say not to do your experiment until you can be assured it won't damage your research subjects.
- DominikR 11y agoHow about letting people make their own choice on how they want to spend their life? Who are YOU to believe you can make that decision for me and everyone else?
- baddox 11y agoI agree. I also agree with your comment if you replace "life" with "money."
- dominotw 11y ago>I like the idea of "mandatory paternity leave", to make up for the biological asymmetry. How do you enforce it tho? People can not report child birth to their employers.
- dominotw 11y ago>I like the idea of "mandatory paternity leave", to make up for the biological asymmetry. How do you enforce it tho? People can not report child birth to their employers.
- bcheung 11y agoYou want to make it illegal for someone to work when they want to work and can work..., and maybe even need to work for the income? That is a horrible idea. What possible reason is there for this? To equalize wages? A family had 2 income earners, then they are down to 1. And you want to take away all their ability to have income?
- lagadu 11y ago> and maybe even need to work for the income? We don't lose the income during parental leave.
- randyrand 11y agoHow far are you willing to sacrifice freedom in the name of a few percentage points increase in your so called "equality." You need to get your priorities aligned. This is the land of the free. Not the land of the equal.
- RodericDay 11y agoI'm actually Canadian, and I was astonished to find, in this very thread, that in the USA you don't even offer paid maternity leave . Enjoy!
- Nadya 11y ago>I'm actually Canadian, and I was astonished to find, in this very thread, that in the USA you don't even offer paid maternity leave This varies from company to company. It isn't legally required, but the company I work for offers 6 months paid parental leave and it is encouraged you take it to spend time with your newborn/spouse and adjust to the new life. There are a lot of married couples in the office and both parents are allowed to take it together. Most companies that my friends work for offer paid maternity leave ranging from 3 to 12 months. Generally paternal leave is the one that is never offered, or if it is offered, it's subtly discouraged against actually using it (you want that much-needed promotion now that you have a newborn, don't you? better work harder and not take time off!)
- djhn 11y ago> randyrand > This is the land of the free. Not the land of the equal. Is this an attempt to make novelty accounts a thing on HN? Or more seriously, on a scale of 1-10, how much tongue in cheek is in that assessment?
- randyrand 11y agoHuh? Its a play on my name... Randy =)
- mnx 11y agoThat's a terrible idea. It may seem nice to a person with a lot of disposable income, who can afford for both people in the family to take have a break from their careers, but forcing that on people who are in poor financial condition is just terrible.
- RodericDay 11y agoParental leave is paid.
- jacalata 11y agoIt should be, but in America there is no requirement for it to be. Presumably that would come in with any change to make it mandatory.
- chongli 11y agoBut how much is it paid? If somebody is making six figures, is it going to cover the whole amount? That seems unlikely. If it's a low percentage of the total amount, then it's forcing a big pay cut that families may not be able to afford.
- lagadu 11y agoDetails vary by country, but in the three countries I've lived in 100% of your salary. It's paid by social security, even if your salary is in the seven figures, then you also paid a high amount to social security to cover for it. edit: here's a table with more details https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave#Europe_.28inc._Eastern_Europe_and_Central_Asia.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave#Europe_.28inc._...
- chongli 11y agoI think the US would have a long way to go before the public would ever accept having 7+ figure salaries paid out of the taxpayer pocket. That's pretty cool that some countries do though I see some of them only offer the 100% to women and not men.
- stvswn 11y agoFirst, you'd be creating a penalty for hiring people who are likely to have children. As a father of young and yet unborn children, I wouldn't appreciate it.
- ZoeZoeBee 11y agoIf we're talking about Silicon Valley and the tech field in general, there already is a penalty for being a father to young children and/or expecting them. A good deal of tech jobs are well over 40 hours a week, sometimes work is all there is time for. That is not an environment conducive to being an active and involved father.
- RodericDay 11y agoCurrently there's a penalty for hiring women based on that exact same reasoning.
- chongli 11y agoRight, but that penalty is deeply ingrained into our capitalist society. You can't solve it with just a quick bandaid fix.
- theseatoms 11y agoCan it be fixed? In the end, pay is linked to productivity. The only fix I see is increased use of paternity leave.
- chongli 11y agoProductivity on paternity leave is zero, since you're not working, so why expect pay to be anything but zero? "Paternity leave" is an attempt to create a non-capitalist bubble inside of a capitalist world. It's like building a colony on Mars; not something you can do trivially.
- chongli 11y agoHow do you know when a man in the office becomes a father? If you institute "mandatory paternity leave" then he just won't tell you. It's already illegal to ask about marital status during a job interview. Are you suggesting we change that, too? Then you risk further reducing the number of marriages in society. The whole problem with paternity leave is that there's a financial disincentive for companies to offer it and there's a financial disincentive for male employees to accept it.
- rosser 11y agoHow do you know when a man in the office becomes a father? Well, for one thing, there's the bit where, if the new child will be covered under the father's health plan, he kinda has to tell HR about it. So they can, you know, change the coverage?
- chongli 11y agoI live in Canada. We don't need to tell our employers about our families in order to receive health care. We still have a similar gender wage gap though. Besides, if I did live in the US and the situation came up, I would be more likely to pay for my child's health insurance out of pocket than to take a $40,000 pay cut.
- emidln 11y agoYou only have to do that when the child of born. Even then, you have quite a bit of leeway as to when you have to notify the insurance company.
- theinternetman 11y ago> How do you know when a man in the office becomes a father? How do you know when a woman in the office is actually pregnant? Going to go feel the bump up yourself?
- facepalm 11y agoThat would only work if you would pay parents for the money they lose while they are not allowed to work. Otherwise you would mainly make families poorer.
- thescribe 11y agoJust to clarify, your ideology requires legally enforced social engineering to deny an aspect of biology? That should be the hint that your first principles are incorrect.