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But how are the tokens distributed? Mining is really why bitcoin is revolutionary, not the blockchain. In fact, "blockchain" is not even mentioned in Satoshi's

by sktrdie 11y ago

But how are the tokens distributed? Mining is really why bitcoin is revolutionary, not the blockchain. In fact, "blockchain" is not even mentioned in Satoshi's paper. So I don't understand all the hype around this term. Banks using their own blockchain simply means they have a data-structure that resembles blocks linked together similar to a linked list. What matters is how the consensus is kept for the chain and that is done using PoW mining.

jaekwon 11y ago
Eris Industries is built on Tendermint. Tendermint doesn't use PoW mining, but it can secure a distributed ledger. https://github.com/tendermint/tendermint/wiki/Byzantine-Consensus-Algorithm https://github.com/tendermint/tendermint/wiki/Byzantine-Cons... There's a lot of great innovations in Bitcoin. One of the primary reasons why it's exciting, is that it's the first widely deployed BFT ledger. Tendermint uses a different BFT algorithm that doesn't use mining. Raft and Paxos aren't BFT, btw. As of 2012 there still weren't good implementations of PBFT/BFT middleware. http://cgi.di.uoa.gr/~mema/publications/middleware-2012.pdf http://cgi.di.uoa.gr/~mema/publications/middleware-2012.pdf . Tendermint is that middleware. Here's a post on why Tendermint ledgers should be called blockchains: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10847136 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10847136 A lot of people say that blockchains aren't blockchains without PoW. It's not surprising that people are saying this... there's been a ton of phony consensus algorithms that purport to not use PoW mining. Tendermint is different.
- sktrdie 11y ago
  What exactly is BFT? Proof-of-stake doesn't reach consensus (https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf) and it's unclear what this Tendermint is using? Do you have any data to back your claims up?
  - jaekwon 11y ago
    A consensus algorithm is one that ensures that multiple independent actors come to agreement about anything. In a blockchain, multiple independent miners or validators need to come to agreement about which blocks have been committed. A fault-tolerant consensus algorithm is a consensus algorithm that can tolerate failure of any nodes (e.g. miners or validators). By failure, I'm referring to fail-stop failures, where a miner or validator crashes or goes offline. The key metric for fault-tolerant consensus algorithms is the threshold for how many failures the system can tolerate. For example, Raft is a fault-tolerant consensus algorithm can tolerate up to 49.99% of node failures. A Byzantine fault-tolerant consensus algorithm is a fault-tolerant consensus algorithm that can tolerate not just fail-stop failures, but arbitrary failures. For example, one or more nodes that get hacked by a malicious hacker might be coordinated to subvert consensus from within. Bitcoin is exciting because it can tolerate such attacks from within (e.g. any miner) to a significant degree. Tendermint is similar, except it doesn't require significant energy expenditure for its security. Proof-of-Stake was a family of early consensus algorithms from cryptocurrency projects that don't use PoW mining. A lot of them are terrible and suffered from the "nothing at stake" problem. For a while, the Tendermint project had been using collateral bonds to ensure that there is actually "something at stake". But Tendermit is more general than that. You can have stake with collateral posted on-or-off-chain, or, you don't need to use collateral at all. It all depends on what you're trying to build. If you want a standalone cryptocurrency blockchain, you'll want in-chain collateral with bond deposits. But different blockchains have different requirements, so posting collateral to put something at stake may not be one of them. Personally I think we should just avoid the term "proof of stake". See ErisIndustries using Tendermint for ErisDB: https://github.com/eris-ltd/eris-db/blob/master/erisdb/serve.go https://github.com/eris-ltd/eris-db/blob/master/erisdb/serve... Actually, we wrote the Ethereum virtual machine implementation that they're using. We're moving away from the EVM though, because the TMSP architecture allows for easier native-application development. http://github.com/tendermint/tmsp http://github.com/tendermint/tmsp If you want proof on the security of the Tendermint consensus algorithm, it's in the Github wiki.
    - fsiefken 11y ago
      Is that a reference to the Illuminatus trilogy in the Eris name and Tendermint logo?
- brighton36 11y ago
  For those that want to learn more about how Tendermint isn't a scam, check out jaekwon's interview here: https://soundcloud.com/bitcoinuncensored/jae-kwon-explains-tendermint https://soundcloud.com/bitcoinuncensored/jae-kwon-explains-t...
dbcurtis 11y ago
I think you have it exactly backwards. The blockchain ledger applies to anything you want to trade/communicate with traceability. Some people trade bitcoin that way, and that was a good demonstration vehicle. But blockchain can be applied to anything, not just crypto-currencies. Why not chain-of-title for real estate? Now there is the poster child for a highly manual system based on shuffling and signing very large stacks of paper.
- aback 11y ago
  What is the incentive to mine the real estate blockchain? Does it pay out a free house every 10 minutes?
  - greggyb 11y ago
    Probably transaction fees? There's no reason a blockchain must be self-funded through proof-of-work mining. To my understanding, the expected future state of Bitcoin is that the role currently filled by miners will be replaced by transaction processors who take a fee to do the work.
  - dbcurtis 11y ago
    It's not about the mining!!!! Block chain is about having an immutable, non-repudiatable transaction record. Block chain is a wheel.... guess what, wheels have uses far beyond the Pharaoh's war chariots. Like, you know, bicycles and automobiles. Stop conflating block chain and crypto-currency.
    - asbromberg 11y ago
      It is about the mining though. The mining is what makes the blockchain immutable. How do you propose making it immutable without that feature?
      - jaekwon 11y ago
        There are two ways to secure a ledger. Mining, and accountable BFT like Tendermint.
IndianAstronaut 11y ago
This article may have had an impact in finance circles. http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21677198-technology-behind-bitcoin-could-transform-how-economy-works-trust-machine http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21677198-technology-be...

by sktrdie 11y ago

jaekwon 11y ago

Eris Industries is built on Tendermint. Tendermint doesn't use PoW mining, but it can secure a distributed ledger. https://github.com/tendermint/tendermint/wiki/Byzantine-Consensus-Algorithm https://github.com/tendermint/tendermint/wiki/Byzantine-Cons... There's a lot of great innovations in Bitcoin. One of the primary reasons why it's exciting, is that it's the first widely deployed BFT ledger. Tendermint uses a different BFT algorithm that doesn't use mining. Raft and Paxos aren't BFT, btw. As of 2012 there still weren't good implementations of PBFT/BFT middleware. http://cgi.di.uoa.gr/~mema/publications/middleware-2012.pdf http://cgi.di.uoa.gr/~mema/publications/middleware-2012.pdf . Tendermint is that middleware. Here's a post on why Tendermint ledgers should be called blockchains: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10847136 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10847136 A lot of people say that blockchains aren't blockchains without PoW. It's not surprising that people are saying this... there's been a ton of phony consensus algorithms that purport to not use PoW mining. Tendermint is different.

sktrdie 11y ago
What exactly is BFT? Proof-of-stake doesn't reach consensus (https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf) and it's unclear what this Tendermint is using? Do you have any data to back your claims up?
- jaekwon 11y ago
  A consensus algorithm is one that ensures that multiple independent actors come to agreement about anything. In a blockchain, multiple independent miners or validators need to come to agreement about which blocks have been committed. A fault-tolerant consensus algorithm is a consensus algorithm that can tolerate failure of any nodes (e.g. miners or validators). By failure, I'm referring to fail-stop failures, where a miner or validator crashes or goes offline. The key metric for fault-tolerant consensus algorithms is the threshold for how many failures the system can tolerate. For example, Raft is a fault-tolerant consensus algorithm can tolerate up to 49.99% of node failures. A Byzantine fault-tolerant consensus algorithm is a fault-tolerant consensus algorithm that can tolerate not just fail-stop failures, but arbitrary failures. For example, one or more nodes that get hacked by a malicious hacker might be coordinated to subvert consensus from within. Bitcoin is exciting because it can tolerate such attacks from within (e.g. any miner) to a significant degree. Tendermint is similar, except it doesn't require significant energy expenditure for its security. Proof-of-Stake was a family of early consensus algorithms from cryptocurrency projects that don't use PoW mining. A lot of them are terrible and suffered from the "nothing at stake" problem. For a while, the Tendermint project had been using collateral bonds to ensure that there is actually "something at stake". But Tendermit is more general than that. You can have stake with collateral posted on-or-off-chain, or, you don't need to use collateral at all. It all depends on what you're trying to build. If you want a standalone cryptocurrency blockchain, you'll want in-chain collateral with bond deposits. But different blockchains have different requirements, so posting collateral to put something at stake may not be one of them. Personally I think we should just avoid the term "proof of stake". See ErisIndustries using Tendermint for ErisDB: https://github.com/eris-ltd/eris-db/blob/master/erisdb/serve.go https://github.com/eris-ltd/eris-db/blob/master/erisdb/serve... Actually, we wrote the Ethereum virtual machine implementation that they're using. We're moving away from the EVM though, because the TMSP architecture allows for easier native-application development. http://github.com/tendermint/tmsp http://github.com/tendermint/tmsp If you want proof on the security of the Tendermint consensus algorithm, it's in the Github wiki.
  - fsiefken 11y ago
    Is that a reference to the Illuminatus trilogy in the Eris name and Tendermint logo?
brighton36 11y ago
For those that want to learn more about how Tendermint isn't a scam, check out jaekwon's interview here: https://soundcloud.com/bitcoinuncensored/jae-kwon-explains-tendermint https://soundcloud.com/bitcoinuncensored/jae-kwon-explains-t...

dbcurtis 11y ago

I think you have it exactly backwards. The blockchain ledger applies to anything you want to trade/communicate with traceability. Some people trade bitcoin that way, and that was a good demonstration vehicle. But blockchain can be applied to anything, not just crypto-currencies. Why not chain-of-title for real estate? Now there is the poster child for a highly manual system based on shuffling and signing very large stacks of paper.

aback 11y ago
What is the incentive to mine the real estate blockchain? Does it pay out a free house every 10 minutes?
- greggyb 11y ago
  Probably transaction fees? There's no reason a blockchain must be self-funded through proof-of-work mining. To my understanding, the expected future state of Bitcoin is that the role currently filled by miners will be replaced by transaction processors who take a fee to do the work.
- dbcurtis 11y ago
  It's not about the mining!!!! Block chain is about having an immutable, non-repudiatable transaction record. Block chain is a wheel.... guess what, wheels have uses far beyond the Pharaoh's war chariots. Like, you know, bicycles and automobiles. Stop conflating block chain and crypto-currency.
  - asbromberg 11y ago
    It is about the mining though. The mining is what makes the blockchain immutable. How do you propose making it immutable without that feature?
    - jaekwon 11y ago
      There are two ways to secure a ledger. Mining, and accountable BFT like Tendermint.

IndianAstronaut 11y ago

This article may have had an impact in finance circles. http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21677198-technology-behind-bitcoin-could-transform-how-economy-works-trust-machine http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21677198-technology-be...