6 ms·

So we have an app that tracks on an hourly basis the following: people who hire against the law, people who work against the law, people who don't withhold inc

So we have an app that tracks on an hourly basis the following: people who hire against the law, people who work against the law, people who don't withhold income tax on wages, and people who don't report income to the IRS. All in a beautifully supeanable electronic format.

hga 11y ago
Yeah, I can imagine a YUGE use case for this data starting in slightly less than one year.
Eridrus 11y ago
These day labor spots are well known enough for employers to find them, I don't think this will add significant exposure to these people.
flashman 11y ago
I'm not certain that any crackdowns that drive up the price of labor, and cost votes from the immigrant community, will get off the ground. Then again, Donald Trump could get elected.
- bruceb 11y ago
  It depends if your labor is going up in demand/price.
cheese1756 11y ago
Since the developers have been working on the app for three years, I'm sure that they've built in safeguards. One simple fix that comes to mind is to store all data locally, except for the database of abusive employers. If people want to contact lawyers to recover lost wages, all of the information in the app is kept private since attorney-client confidentiality kicks in. With something like that, there is no additional risk to using the app. P.S. This is not a criticism of you or your comment, danielvf (I think that the point you brought up is valid). One thing that does bother me about Hacker News, though, is that the top comment is almost always a rejection of the innovation at hand. The hacker part of Hacker News should be about improving imperfect systems, not instinctively criticizing and rejecting them. I feel like HN would be a much more interesting site and much truer to its culture if every critical comment had to include a potential fix for the criticism. If someone can't come up with a potential fix to add, then they haven't done enough research to justify making the comment in the first place.
- GauntletWizard 11y ago
  The flaws (or potential flaws) in a given system are almost always more interesting to discuss than the ways in which it has succeeded. Praises ring soft, criticism is fun to debate.
  - cheese1756 11y ago
    I agree that it can be interesting and useful to discuss flaws, but potential solutions are what make the discussion worthwhile. Saying "This will never work for X, Y, and Z reasons" creates a much less interesting debate than "This has flaw X, but I think it could be solved by this change. What do you think?" It frequently appears that people react negatively on HN purely based on instinct, without doing any research. The response to Dropbox's launch is particularly illuminating: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863 (I think that every Dropbox user can point out half a dozen ways it is better than FTP or a USB stick) All of the criticism on the Dropbox post is addressable, but the discussion would have been a lot more interesting if the original commenters pointed out solutions themselves. That shifts the discussion from a feeling of "This will never work" to "Cool idea! Here's how you can make it better." The latter, and not the former, is important to the culture of HN.
  - a3n 11y ago
    You're right, it is important to remember to give credit. But for many of the people here, getting something "right" is an explicit and fundamental part of what we do. It's a specific, on purpose focus. So it's natural (and good) that we'd think that way.
- moonshinefe 11y ago
  "Since the developers have been working on the app for three years, I'm sure that they've built in safeguards." In my experience assuming people are competent in their security is usually a really really optimistic view point and very often untrue.
  - PhasmaFelis 11y ago
Zikes 11y ago
Additionally, both the Apple App Store and Google Play Store have clauses against using apps that are intended to enable illegal activity. Their best hope to ensure it doesn't get taken down is to make it a web app.
mc32 11y ago
That's exactly my thought. It's like a submarine way to rat people out. You hook them on one pretext and then you can turn around and sell the data to the IRS so they can get the tax cheats and on the other hand sell data to ICE to get people who jump in front of the immigration line in trouble. Win win win, for them, lose for the cheaters, and the cheated.
- xbmcuser 11y ago
  Well they are getting away with not paying as the worker won't or can't complain. Now the worker will have his own leverage so will cancel out cheating.
sigmar 11y ago
> people who hire against the law, people who work against the law Day labor is not illegal.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- danielvf 11y ago
  You are correct, it's not illegal, and it serves a very useful purpose, however it's highly correlated with not paying taxes on both sides, and with hiring people who cannot legally work.
x5n1 11y ago
Whatever, I have no sympathy for employers who exploit people like these or actually any people. More reason for them to play nice.
- pc86 11y ago
  Day labor is not illegal. And I think the point was that this data is potentially one subpoena away from getting a list of illegal immigrants (who themselves would be very susceptible to exploitation).
Matt3o12_ 11y ago
It should not be an issue if the data is stored Mexico and all traffic is going through HTTP. I don't think law enforcement is able to extract data for illegal immigrants from Mexico. They aren't terrorist after all.
- EliRivers 11y ago
  I expect that the argument they're terrorists could be made if that's what the authorities required.
  - Matt3o12_ 11y ago
    It could not be used in court, though, and putting all immigrants in some of CIA's secret prisons (if the exists) would be even more expensive for the tax payer.
SilasX 11y ago
Yeah I think it misses the core problem with day labor, which is that the victims of any such shenanigans are themselves unwilling to report it because they are breaking immigration and taxation laws. Reporting it -- via this app or otherwise -- can make them much worse off.

hga 11y ago

Yeah, I can imagine a YUGE use case for this data starting in slightly less than one year.

Eridrus 11y ago

These day labor spots are well known enough for employers to find them, I don't think this will add significant exposure to these people.

flashman 11y ago

I'm not certain that any crackdowns that drive up the price of labor, and cost votes from the immigrant community, will get off the ground. Then again, Donald Trump could get elected.

bruceb 11y ago
It depends if your labor is going up in demand/price.

cheese1756 11y ago

Since the developers have been working on the app for three years, I'm sure that they've built in safeguards. One simple fix that comes to mind is to store all data locally, except for the database of abusive employers. If people want to contact lawyers to recover lost wages, all of the information in the app is kept private since attorney-client confidentiality kicks in. With something like that, there is no additional risk to using the app. P.S. This is not a criticism of you or your comment, danielvf (I think that the point you brought up is valid). One thing that does bother me about Hacker News, though, is that the top comment is almost always a rejection of the innovation at hand. The hacker part of Hacker News should be about improving imperfect systems, not instinctively criticizing and rejecting them. I feel like HN would be a much more interesting site and much truer to its culture if every critical comment had to include a potential fix for the criticism. If someone can't come up with a potential fix to add, then they haven't done enough research to justify making the comment in the first place.

GauntletWizard 11y ago
The flaws (or potential flaws) in a given system are almost always more interesting to discuss than the ways in which it has succeeded. Praises ring soft, criticism is fun to debate.
- cheese1756 11y ago
  I agree that it can be interesting and useful to discuss flaws, but potential solutions are what make the discussion worthwhile. Saying "This will never work for X, Y, and Z reasons" creates a much less interesting debate than "This has flaw X, but I think it could be solved by this change. What do you think?" It frequently appears that people react negatively on HN purely based on instinct, without doing any research. The response to Dropbox's launch is particularly illuminating: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863 (I think that every Dropbox user can point out half a dozen ways it is better than FTP or a USB stick) All of the criticism on the Dropbox post is addressable, but the discussion would have been a lot more interesting if the original commenters pointed out solutions themselves. That shifts the discussion from a feeling of "This will never work" to "Cool idea! Here's how you can make it better." The latter, and not the former, is important to the culture of HN.
- a3n 11y ago
  You're right, it is important to remember to give credit. But for many of the people here, getting something "right" is an explicit and fundamental part of what we do. It's a specific, on purpose focus. So it's natural (and good) that we'd think that way.
moonshinefe 11y ago
"Since the developers have been working on the app for three years, I'm sure that they've built in safeguards." In my experience assuming people are competent in their security is usually a really really optimistic view point and very often untrue.
- PhasmaFelis 11y ago

Zikes 11y ago

Additionally, both the Apple App Store and Google Play Store have clauses against using apps that are intended to enable illegal activity. Their best hope to ensure it doesn't get taken down is to make it a web app.

mc32 11y ago

That's exactly my thought. It's like a submarine way to rat people out. You hook them on one pretext and then you can turn around and sell the data to the IRS so they can get the tax cheats and on the other hand sell data to ICE to get people who jump in front of the immigration line in trouble. Win win win, for them, lose for the cheaters, and the cheated.

xbmcuser 11y ago
Well they are getting away with not paying as the worker won't or can't complain. Now the worker will have his own leverage so will cancel out cheating.

sigmar 11y ago

> people who hire against the law, people who work against the law Day labor is not illegal.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
danielvf 11y ago
You are correct, it's not illegal, and it serves a very useful purpose, however it's highly correlated with not paying taxes on both sides, and with hiring people who cannot legally work.

x5n1 11y ago

Whatever, I have no sympathy for employers who exploit people like these or actually any people. More reason for them to play nice.

pc86 11y ago
Day labor is not illegal. And I think the point was that this data is potentially one subpoena away from getting a list of illegal immigrants (who themselves would be very susceptible to exploitation).

Matt3o12_ 11y ago

It should not be an issue if the data is stored Mexico and all traffic is going through HTTP. I don't think law enforcement is able to extract data for illegal immigrants from Mexico. They aren't terrorist after all.

EliRivers 11y ago
I expect that the argument they're terrorists could be made if that's what the authorities required.
- Matt3o12_ 11y ago
  It could not be used in court, though, and putting all immigrants in some of CIA's secret prisons (if the exists) would be even more expensive for the tax payer.

SilasX 11y ago

Yeah I think it misses the core problem with day labor, which is that the victims of any such shenanigans are themselves unwilling to report it because they are breaking immigration and taxation laws. Reporting it -- via this app or otherwise -- can make them much worse off.