5 ms·

Maybe it's the NSA splicing a fiber with the USS Jimmy Carter.

mschuster91 11y ago
How does that work in practice, anyways? I mean, cables these days don't just carry a bunch of fibre wires, but also high-voltage cabling to provide power to the repeaters. Isn't it risky / detectable to cut open such a cable? Also, how is the spliced data actually exfiltrated back to land? The obvious candidate is either a leased dark fiber (which requires intimate knowledge of how the individual fibres are arranged) and laying a second cable (with the obvious disadvantage that cable-laying ships are rare and can easily be spotted).
- ceejayoz 11y ago
  > Also, how is the spliced data actually exfiltrated back to land? In the operations against the Soviets that've been made public, they physically retrieved the tap.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- gist 11y ago
  Would make sense to just tap into the repeaters. That is the common sense approach from someone (me) that knows zip about the setup but that seems like the way it would be done.
  - mkj 11y ago
    They're optical repeaters.
- zw123456 11y ago
  The cut is made 100's of miles away from where the taps are being installed and made to look accidental because installing the taps will disrupt service. When the technicians run the OTDR, a repair ship is sent and the distraction cut is repaired, but the taps have already been installed and sealed back up. Not all fibers pass through places where it can be done on land (i.e. not in US) so this is necessary.
  - pyvpx 11y ago
    submarine cables are significantly different than terrestrial fiber networks. a fault will be detected in/from both directions, immediately and automatically. it has been suggested that the USS Jimmy Carter can tap submarine cables without disrupting service or physically damaging the fiber. did you know when you bend a strand of fiber enough, you can make out the signal and only affect attenuation?
    - mschuster91 11y ago
      Yeah but still you need to remove the outer casing in order to, well, see the fiber. And that is detectable if you have to cut through a layer conducting high voltage.
      - Mtinie 11y ago
        "Where there's a will (and enough black project money), there's a way." With love, NSA
      - thowawy3216 11y ago
        Modern cables don't have high voltage to worry about. The signals are amplified optically: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_amplifier#Doped_fiber_amplifiers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_amplifier#Doped_fiber_... It isn't necessary to bend a fiber either. Optical fibers can be tapped via evanescent wave coupling. The fiber cores just need to be near enough to each other over a long enough span, possibly with some removal of the outer cladding. Notable patents: "There is a need for coupling light into and from an optical transmission line without interrupting the flow of transmission. Such lines may be used for communications, as well as other purposes.[1]" 1. https://www.google.com/patents/US3933410 https://www.google.com/patents/US3933410 2. https://www.google.com/patents/US4097117 https://www.google.com/patents/US4097117 3. https://www.google.com/patents/US4377403 https://www.google.com/patents/US4377403 4. https://www.google.com/patents/US4763272 https://www.google.com/patents/US4763272 5. https://www.google.com/patents/US4336047 https://www.google.com/patents/US4336047
- cynwoody 11y ago
  >how is the spliced data actually exfiltrated back to land? During the Cold War, they periodically returned to the site of the tap and changed the tapes and batteries. One of the taps was installed on a Soviet telephone cable across the Sea of Okhotsk in several hundred feet of water. It was a 20-foot long contraption able to eavesdrop without penetrating the cable. It was designed to fall off the cable if the Soviets raised it for repairs. It survived nearly a decade, until 1981, when Ronald Pelton sold its location (among other secrets) to the KGB for $35k. http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent1/?file=cw_f_ivybells http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent1/?file=cw_f_ivyb... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ivy_Bells https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ivy_Bells
  - shultays 11y ago
    An inflation calculator says it is $100k today. That sounds awfully cheap.
cmdrfred 11y ago
my thoughts exactly.
- circlecrimson 11y ago
  my friends and I always half joke about this too. It's likely the sad truth.
jonlucc 11y ago
Why that submarine in particular?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- fabulist 11y ago
  Supposedly it has a cable splicing room. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/20/politics/new-nuclear-sub-is-said-to-have-special-eavesdropping-ability.html http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/20/politics/new-nuclear-sub-i...
- tofof 11y ago
  Because the USS Parche (SSN-683) is decommissioned?
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
driverdan 11y ago
Why bother when they have direct access to the US end of it anyway?

How does that work in practice, anyways? I mean, cables these days don't just carry a bunch of fibre wires, but also high-voltage cabling to provide power to the repeaters. Isn't it risky / detectable to cut open such a cable? Also, how is the spliced data actually exfiltrated back to land? The obvious candidate is either a leased dark fiber (which requires intimate knowledge of how the individual fibres are arranged) and laying a second cable (with the obvious disadvantage that cable-laying ships are rare and can easily be spotted).

ceejayoz 11y ago
> Also, how is the spliced data actually exfiltrated back to land? In the operations against the Soviets that've been made public, they physically retrieved the tap.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
gist 11y ago
Would make sense to just tap into the repeaters. That is the common sense approach from someone (me) that knows zip about the setup but that seems like the way it would be done.
- mkj 11y ago
  They're optical repeaters.
zw123456 11y ago
The cut is made 100's of miles away from where the taps are being installed and made to look accidental because installing the taps will disrupt service. When the technicians run the OTDR, a repair ship is sent and the distraction cut is repaired, but the taps have already been installed and sealed back up. Not all fibers pass through places where it can be done on land (i.e. not in US) so this is necessary.
- pyvpx 11y ago
  submarine cables are significantly different than terrestrial fiber networks. a fault will be detected in/from both directions, immediately and automatically. it has been suggested that the USS Jimmy Carter can tap submarine cables without disrupting service or physically damaging the fiber. did you know when you bend a strand of fiber enough, you can make out the signal and only affect attenuation?
  - mschuster91 11y ago
    Yeah but still you need to remove the outer casing in order to, well, see the fiber. And that is detectable if you have to cut through a layer conducting high voltage.
    - Mtinie 11y ago
      "Where there's a will (and enough black project money), there's a way." With love, NSA
    - thowawy3216 11y ago
      Modern cables don't have high voltage to worry about. The signals are amplified optically: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_amplifier#Doped_fiber_amplifiers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_amplifier#Doped_fiber_... It isn't necessary to bend a fiber either. Optical fibers can be tapped via evanescent wave coupling. The fiber cores just need to be near enough to each other over a long enough span, possibly with some removal of the outer cladding. Notable patents: "There is a need for coupling light into and from an optical transmission line without interrupting the flow of transmission. Such lines may be used for communications, as well as other purposes.[1]" 1. https://www.google.com/patents/US3933410 https://www.google.com/patents/US3933410 2. https://www.google.com/patents/US4097117 https://www.google.com/patents/US4097117 3. https://www.google.com/patents/US4377403 https://www.google.com/patents/US4377403 4. https://www.google.com/patents/US4763272 https://www.google.com/patents/US4763272 5. https://www.google.com/patents/US4336047 https://www.google.com/patents/US4336047
cynwoody 11y ago
>how is the spliced data actually exfiltrated back to land? During the Cold War, they periodically returned to the site of the tap and changed the tapes and batteries. One of the taps was installed on a Soviet telephone cable across the Sea of Okhotsk in several hundred feet of water. It was a 20-foot long contraption able to eavesdrop without penetrating the cable. It was designed to fall off the cable if the Soviets raised it for repairs. It survived nearly a decade, until 1981, when Ronald Pelton sold its location (among other secrets) to the KGB for $35k. http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent1/?file=cw_f_ivybells http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent1/?file=cw_f_ivyb... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ivy_Bells https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ivy_Bells
- shultays 11y ago
  An inflation calculator says it is $100k today. That sounds awfully cheap.

cmdrfred 11y ago

my thoughts exactly.

circlecrimson 11y ago
my friends and I always half joke about this too. It's likely the sad truth.

jonlucc 11y ago

Why that submarine in particular?

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
fabulist 11y ago
Supposedly it has a cable splicing room. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/20/politics/new-nuclear-sub-is-said-to-have-special-eavesdropping-ability.html http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/20/politics/new-nuclear-sub-i...
tofof 11y ago
Because the USS Parche (SSN-683) is decommissioned?

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

driverdan 11y ago

Why bother when they have direct access to the US end of it anyway?