4 ms·

Traditional light switches have evolved to have the perfect UX (within their scope). I can tell the state of the switch from its physical position and it has a

by rlpb 11y ago

Traditional light switches have evolved to have the perfect UX (within their scope). I can tell the state of the switch from its physical position and it has a nice click when switching to give me instant and appropriate tactile feedback. Losing this is a step backwards. For me, this device would be a downgrade even if it worked well. I understand that the state of the switch might end up wrong, but we already have that in standard 2-way switches. Ultimately, perhaps we'll see mechanical switches that can also move themselves. You can get both Z-Wave and Insteon switch inserts that continue using the existing physical switch but also relay the switch position to a controller. I plan to use these instead. I like Insteon's dual bus system (RF and also encoded into the lighting circuit itself) but it doesn't have encryption. Z-Wave has encryption but I don't know how good it is. So I haven't decided between the two yet.

edent 11y ago
That's very true. The switches I reviewed had good "click" when pressed and used an LED to indicate state. I did look at Z-Wave switches, but it seems they also need a neutral wire. Perhaps I'll just hire a servant to turn things on and off for me. Uber for electrical switches...
- delinka 11y ago
  "...LED to indicate state." This will not do when I'm trying to sleep in a darkened room.
  - edent 11y ago
    Actually, I think on that specific switch it was the other way round. Personally I'd have preferred your scenario - because it means I can always find the switch.
  - jagger27 11y ago
    I would be okay with a dim orange LED. I already sleep with several idle LEDs on so one more won't hurt.
  - pjc50 11y ago
    This is funnier because by definition it already has a many-watt light to indicate state!
    - Decade 11y ago
      Doesn't work when you are in a poorly designed space with several adjacent 3-way switches that control interleaved lights. Oh, how many times I've wished those switches had some indicator.
- jerf 11y ago
  "Uber for electrical switches..." As the bottom of the page says as I write this, "Applications are open for YC Summer 2016"....
- thearn4 11y ago
  > they also need a neutral wire. Generally this is true. That said, there are some Z-Wave switchable outlet adapters or LED bulbs that are on the market that can be used in an existing fixture without changes to the physical wiring, if needed. There was only only place in my house where this ended up being needed (a 3-way switch that left no free AC neutral).
Klathmon 11y ago
I would love to see some real innovation in this area, because i think there is so much that can be done to retrofit every single switch in a current house with something. I've currently given up because my house has 4 3 or 4-way circuits and there are really only 2 pretty poor choices for 3-way switches, and none that i can find so far for 4-way that don't require you to fully rewire the circuit and then have the controller to fake the 4-way-ness of the circuit.
- zarq 11y ago
  The most prominent real innovation I can think of is to not have light switches at all. It should be possible to have some heat/motion detection system hooked up to the lights, so that you don't actually ever have to manually turn the lights on or off any more. For bedrooms, I can even think of something that links to the alarm clock.
  - edent 11y ago
    I did look at using PIR sensors - but the problem is that we quite often want the lights off when we're in a room. For example, watching a movie.
Symbiote 11y ago
My apartment has the worst of both worlds: switches that can't be controlled by WiFi, but are wireless [1]. The switch has no state, so sometimes I press the wrong side of it. Sometimes the light doesn't respond — particularly if I want to switch more than one light on or off. One day the batteries in the switch will run out. I assume the only advantage is the reduction in wiring needed. [1] http://www.lk.dk/losninger/fa-graveret-dine-tangenter/ http://www.lk.dk/losninger/fa-graveret-dine-tangenter/
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
manyxcxi 11y ago
I can't speak to the Insteon but I have Z-Wave devices throughout the house. I chose Z-Wave for the same reason you're interested: in theory they have an attempt at security. I've read about some possible shortcomings, but it frankly seemed like the best option available. Initial pairing can be awkward because they require that they're within about a meter, maybe two, in order to set up the relationship. After that, devices that are hard wired typically create a range extending mesh network which has allowed me to get communication with devices all the way across the house and upstairs even though my hub is way too far away for direct communication. I've got outlets, a thermostat, light switches, temp/humidity sensors, and motion detectors that are all Z-Wave based and they have worked flawlessly for going on a year. EDIT: With all the IoT horror stories on HN lately- I wanted to add that I purposely chose a set of devices that do not directly connect to the Internet for all the reasons we are hearing about. Phoning home, hidden unsecured networks, etc. With Z-Wave (and ZigBee, and others) you don't need the Internet at all. If I removed my home hub right now everything would work (except for some macros) as if they were regular ol' non-connected devices. This was the absolute most important thing to me and why I chose a $60 Z-Wave thermostat that looks like an old $20 programmable one instead of Nest or some of the others.
exhilaration 11y ago
> You can get both Z-Wave and Insteon switch inserts that continue using the existing physical switch Can you provide some links? I'm also looking to automate some lights via z-wave and am having similar difficulty in deciding what to use.
- rlpb 11y ago
  http://www.insteon.com/on-off-micro-module/ http://www.insteon.com/on-off-micro-module/ http://www.insteon.com/dimmer-micro-module/ http://www.insteon.com/dimmer-micro-module/ http://aeotec.com/z-wave-in-wall-switches/170-micro-smart-appliance-switch.html http://aeotec.com/z-wave-in-wall-switches/170-micro-smart-ap...
imglorp 11y ago
I'm not sure how important security is in a z-wave lightswitch because any vulnerabilities for your network would be in the zigbee-to-lan gateway. The devices are rather dumb themselves, just an address and a little bit of state. If someone did compromise the lightswitch, it would still need the gateway to do malice. If you're talking about a full processing node, that would be a real concern, like some of these wifi products that can sit on your network, sniff traffic, and compromise you via egress. I have a real concern over all these unknowns.
- rlpb 11y ago
  I'd prefer somebody outside not to be able to kill all the lights in my home.
nkrisc 11y ago
> I can tell the state of the switch from its physical position Until some Goofus installs it sideways.
thearn4 11y ago
I've had really good luck wiring about 10 of my home lights (indoors and outdoors) with Z-Wave switches. Integrating them with a broader Python REST API (I have a few other non-Zwave sensors and cameras) and custom mobile control apps was a really enjoyable project of mine last fall.

by rlpb 11y ago

edent 11y ago

That's very true. The switches I reviewed had good "click" when pressed and used an LED to indicate state. I did look at Z-Wave switches, but it seems they also need a neutral wire. Perhaps I'll just hire a servant to turn things on and off for me. Uber for electrical switches...

delinka 11y ago
"...LED to indicate state." This will not do when I'm trying to sleep in a darkened room.
- edent 11y ago
  Actually, I think on that specific switch it was the other way round. Personally I'd have preferred your scenario - because it means I can always find the switch.
- jagger27 11y ago
  I would be okay with a dim orange LED. I already sleep with several idle LEDs on so one more won't hurt.
- pjc50 11y ago
  This is funnier because by definition it already has a many-watt light to indicate state!
  - Decade 11y ago
    Doesn't work when you are in a poorly designed space with several adjacent 3-way switches that control interleaved lights. Oh, how many times I've wished those switches had some indicator.
jerf 11y ago
"Uber for electrical switches..." As the bottom of the page says as I write this, "Applications are open for YC Summer 2016"....
thearn4 11y ago
> they also need a neutral wire. Generally this is true. That said, there are some Z-Wave switchable outlet adapters or LED bulbs that are on the market that can be used in an existing fixture without changes to the physical wiring, if needed. There was only only place in my house where this ended up being needed (a 3-way switch that left no free AC neutral).

Klathmon 11y ago

I would love to see some real innovation in this area, because i think there is so much that can be done to retrofit every single switch in a current house with something. I've currently given up because my house has 4 3 or 4-way circuits and there are really only 2 pretty poor choices for 3-way switches, and none that i can find so far for 4-way that don't require you to fully rewire the circuit and then have the controller to fake the 4-way-ness of the circuit.

zarq 11y ago
The most prominent real innovation I can think of is to not have light switches at all. It should be possible to have some heat/motion detection system hooked up to the lights, so that you don't actually ever have to manually turn the lights on or off any more. For bedrooms, I can even think of something that links to the alarm clock.
- edent 11y ago
  I did look at using PIR sensors - but the problem is that we quite often want the lights off when we're in a room. For example, watching a movie.

Symbiote 11y ago

My apartment has the worst of both worlds: switches that can't be controlled by WiFi, but are wireless [1]. The switch has no state, so sometimes I press the wrong side of it. Sometimes the light doesn't respond — particularly if I want to switch more than one light on or off. One day the batteries in the switch will run out. I assume the only advantage is the reduction in wiring needed. [1] http://www.lk.dk/losninger/fa-graveret-dine-tangenter/ http://www.lk.dk/losninger/fa-graveret-dine-tangenter/

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

manyxcxi 11y ago

I can't speak to the Insteon but I have Z-Wave devices throughout the house. I chose Z-Wave for the same reason you're interested: in theory they have an attempt at security. I've read about some possible shortcomings, but it frankly seemed like the best option available. Initial pairing can be awkward because they require that they're within about a meter, maybe two, in order to set up the relationship. After that, devices that are hard wired typically create a range extending mesh network which has allowed me to get communication with devices all the way across the house and upstairs even though my hub is way too far away for direct communication. I've got outlets, a thermostat, light switches, temp/humidity sensors, and motion detectors that are all Z-Wave based and they have worked flawlessly for going on a year. EDIT: With all the IoT horror stories on HN lately- I wanted to add that I purposely chose a set of devices that do not directly connect to the Internet for all the reasons we are hearing about. Phoning home, hidden unsecured networks, etc. With Z-Wave (and ZigBee, and others) you don't need the Internet at all. If I removed my home hub right now everything would work (except for some macros) as if they were regular ol' non-connected devices. This was the absolute most important thing to me and why I chose a $60 Z-Wave thermostat that looks like an old $20 programmable one instead of Nest or some of the others.

exhilaration 11y ago

> You can get both Z-Wave and Insteon switch inserts that continue using the existing physical switch Can you provide some links? I'm also looking to automate some lights via z-wave and am having similar difficulty in deciding what to use.

rlpb 11y ago
http://www.insteon.com/on-off-micro-module/ http://www.insteon.com/on-off-micro-module/ http://www.insteon.com/dimmer-micro-module/ http://www.insteon.com/dimmer-micro-module/ http://aeotec.com/z-wave-in-wall-switches/170-micro-smart-appliance-switch.html http://aeotec.com/z-wave-in-wall-switches/170-micro-smart-ap...

imglorp 11y ago

I'm not sure how important security is in a z-wave lightswitch because any vulnerabilities for your network would be in the zigbee-to-lan gateway. The devices are rather dumb themselves, just an address and a little bit of state. If someone did compromise the lightswitch, it would still need the gateway to do malice. If you're talking about a full processing node, that would be a real concern, like some of these wifi products that can sit on your network, sniff traffic, and compromise you via egress. I have a real concern over all these unknowns.

rlpb 11y ago
I'd prefer somebody outside not to be able to kill all the lights in my home.

nkrisc 11y ago

> I can tell the state of the switch from its physical position Until some Goofus installs it sideways.

thearn4 11y ago

I've had really good luck wiring about 10 of my home lights (indoors and outdoors) with Z-Wave switches. Integrating them with a broader Python REST API (I have a few other non-Zwave sensors and cameras) and custom mobile control apps was a really enjoyable project of mine last fall.