8 ms·

But Japan and Hong Kong and many others still have far lower drug use and crime rates despite their very tough laws on drug use, when compared to Portugal.

parenthephobia 11y ago
The rational conclusion seems to be that whether drugs are legal, or decriminalized, are, at best, only part of what determines levels of drug use and drug-related crime.
ZeroGravitas 11y ago
The article states that research shows no correlation between severe drug penalties and usage levels. There's a few people offering anecdotes to counter that, but obviously actual research wins, the difference between Portugal and Japan are therefore likely to be cultural differences outside of strict drug laws.
- rqebmm 11y ago
  > cultural differences outside of strict drug laws It's also worth noting that a culture that discourages drug use would likely be more accepting of strict drug control laws.
cr1895 11y ago
Japan and Hong Kong are culturally very different from Portugal, which makes comparison to Portugal difficult. Something interesting to consider is alcohol use in Japan vs. elsewhere: http://www.cmaj.ca/content/167/4/388.1.full http://www.cmaj.ca/content/167/4/388.1.full
gbog 11y ago
China, too, have a far lower drug use rate. Not sure for Japan and Hk, but for China I think there are two main reasons. One, she was "locked in turmoil" during the 70s and the 80s, so did not get the influence from this period. Two, most young people are busy making their life, and have actually good hope to have a much better life than their parents (which is not that difficult).
- rwmj 11y ago
  China has a problem with Ketamine addiction, not helped by whole villages that mass produce the drug. There was a good documentary about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxXvTi3QRwA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxXvTi3QRwA
- mmmBacon 11y ago
  With over 1B people you can bet China has drug problems too. You just don't hear about it because there's no free press there. See: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/world/despite-a-crackdown-use-of-illegal-drugs-in-china-continues-unabated.html?referer= http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/world/despite-a-crackdo... China and HK have long histories of drug use and opium was widely used there prior to 1949. The Opium Wars were fought in China.
  - gbog 11y ago
    China certainly has drug problems, but it is not like in West: i'd have to search carefully to find one French guy of my generation or below that never tried hash. In China most Chinese I know never tried. It's just not the fashion yet. Only a very thin slice of the society is in contact with drugs.
zdw 11y ago
Japan and HK both have significant organized crime that controls the flow of drugs into the country and drives the price way up. In Japan's case the Yakuza has effectively banned certain drugs they consider "too dangerous". Source: I had Japanese roommates in college who turned out to be potheads. They raved about the super-cheap marijuana they could get in the US, which was 1/5 to 1/10th the price as was available in Japan.
rangibaby 11y ago
Japan has low crime rates because there is no visible underclass like blacks in America or immigrants in Europe. There are drugs that are partly or fully banned in other countries that are freely prescribed here (rohypnol, for example). Mushrooms weren't banned at all until recently. An ex's brother was prosecuted for weed but let off after paying a fine. Another guy I knew who sold was let off in exchange for his cellphone contacts.
- hobs 11y ago
  I havent been to Japan, but what about the Burakumin and the Ainu? Didnt Japan pass a law to stop discriminating against the Ainu at one point?
  - cfcef 11y ago
    The Ainu barely exist anymore, and the whole thing about the Burakumin is that they aren't visible and all their descendants hide any connection. A better example would be the Korean descendant population, but that's still a tiny fraction of the population. (I think 1 million out of 130 million or <1%?) So there's no good comparison in Japan to the ~17% African-American population.
  - MrMullen 11y ago
    There are hardly any pure Ainu anymore and they did not rebel against Japanese culture when they were discriminated against. Burakumin is more of a "They work in the wrong business" discrimination and is not based on skin color or a look. Burakumin tend to be Japanese in the Japanese culture and are not really outsiders.
drumdance 11y ago
They also have very homogenous populations with a strong, shared sense of cultural identity.
- seren 11y ago
  I am not sure that having a strong cultural identity as anything to do with drugs consumption. For example, I am pretty sure Russians also have a fairly homogenous population with a strong identity, and they still have an alcohol problem (for other reason I am sure). But I can't see the correlation or the causation here.
  - cr1895 11y ago
    >I am not sure that having a strong cultural identity as anything to do with drugs consumption. Why can't it? Drug use could be socially shunned, counter to cultural norms. Consider Islamic countries where alcohol use is haram. Consider also that alcohol use in both Japan and Russia is culturally accepted. Alcoholism is a significant problem in Japan too.
  - drumdance 11y ago
    Vodka is part of the Russian identity. Marijuana is not part of Hong Kong's identity.
    - ryanlol 11y ago
      HK has insane amounts of expats, significant amounts of which smoke weed. Probably almost half the expats I met, mostly rich young folks though so it's not surprising at all. If you're white and walking around during the night you'll constantly be approached by people trying to sell you weed and coke. (Steep prices, but significantly easier to find than in most western cities) Edit: Wrote that in a bit of a hurry. When talking about HK you need to take into account the massive income inequality between expats and many of the locals working "normal" jobs. Weed is rather expensive for many of the locals, but for some western bankers making 10k+ USD a month it's a relatively cheap way to take a break from the rather hectic life in HK.
    - 11y ago
jernfrost 11y ago
Very had to compare to Japan because Japan essentially legalize organized crime. Yakuza are allowed to operate as long as the follow a minimum set of laws. Basically Japan is following a tradeoff where they have chosen organized crime of lots of unorganized or violent crime. So it will be very hard to compare such a system with a western country which deals with these issues in such a different manner. I can mention that drug use is fairly low in my home country Norway as well despite pretty lax laws. We are doing something very wrong with respect to heavier drugs like heroin though since we have a lot of overdose cases. But Switzerland and the Netherlands seems to be quite good at this and they have very liberal laws.
- Torgo 11y ago
  Maybe we should legalize organized crime instead of drugs. The logic is about the same.
  - droffel 11y ago
    How are legalizing drugs and legalizing crime in any way analogous? Legalizing crime doesn't even make sense, by definition.
    - Torgo 11y ago
      Extralegal mobs that keep out drug dealers.
      - Torgo 11y ago
        Downvoted by an abolitionist!
  - zeveb 11y ago
    What are the traditional organised crimes? - numbers games: this is just a lottery, only with better payouts - drugs: already addressed - prostitution: legal in many countries - loan sharking: this is just lending to risky borrowers at market rates, when lending at market rates is made illegal - protection racket: the only real crime here (and, like numbers games, the State hates competition…) I'd be fine legalising all but the protection racket, because it really is a racket.
mc32 11y ago
Very good point; however one thing to keep in mind that in Japan, Singapore, HK etc., drugs use is seen by the great majority as a huge moral failure and a failure to the family. Social pressure and stigma of drugs use is much more severe. It's not glamorized as "stupid things teenagers do". It's vilified as "the depraved things failed human beings do". Interestingly this tack isn't one western societies have used in their toolbox to counter drugs abuse.

parenthephobia 11y ago

The rational conclusion seems to be that whether drugs are legal, or decriminalized, are, at best, only part of what determines levels of drug use and drug-related crime.

ZeroGravitas 11y ago

The article states that research shows no correlation between severe drug penalties and usage levels. There's a few people offering anecdotes to counter that, but obviously actual research wins, the difference between Portugal and Japan are therefore likely to be cultural differences outside of strict drug laws.

rqebmm 11y ago
> cultural differences outside of strict drug laws It's also worth noting that a culture that discourages drug use would likely be more accepting of strict drug control laws.

cr1895 11y ago

Japan and Hong Kong are culturally very different from Portugal, which makes comparison to Portugal difficult. Something interesting to consider is alcohol use in Japan vs. elsewhere: http://www.cmaj.ca/content/167/4/388.1.full http://www.cmaj.ca/content/167/4/388.1.full

gbog 11y ago

China, too, have a far lower drug use rate. Not sure for Japan and Hk, but for China I think there are two main reasons. One, she was "locked in turmoil" during the 70s and the 80s, so did not get the influence from this period. Two, most young people are busy making their life, and have actually good hope to have a much better life than their parents (which is not that difficult).

rwmj 11y ago
China has a problem with Ketamine addiction, not helped by whole villages that mass produce the drug. There was a good documentary about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxXvTi3QRwA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxXvTi3QRwA
mmmBacon 11y ago
With over 1B people you can bet China has drug problems too. You just don't hear about it because there's no free press there. See: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/world/despite-a-crackdown-use-of-illegal-drugs-in-china-continues-unabated.html?referer= http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/world/despite-a-crackdo... China and HK have long histories of drug use and opium was widely used there prior to 1949. The Opium Wars were fought in China.
- gbog 11y ago
  China certainly has drug problems, but it is not like in West: i'd have to search carefully to find one French guy of my generation or below that never tried hash. In China most Chinese I know never tried. It's just not the fashion yet. Only a very thin slice of the society is in contact with drugs.

zdw 11y ago

Japan and HK both have significant organized crime that controls the flow of drugs into the country and drives the price way up. In Japan's case the Yakuza has effectively banned certain drugs they consider "too dangerous". Source: I had Japanese roommates in college who turned out to be potheads. They raved about the super-cheap marijuana they could get in the US, which was 1/5 to 1/10th the price as was available in Japan.

rangibaby 11y ago

Japan has low crime rates because there is no visible underclass like blacks in America or immigrants in Europe. There are drugs that are partly or fully banned in other countries that are freely prescribed here (rohypnol, for example). Mushrooms weren't banned at all until recently. An ex's brother was prosecuted for weed but let off after paying a fine. Another guy I knew who sold was let off in exchange for his cellphone contacts.

hobs 11y ago
I havent been to Japan, but what about the Burakumin and the Ainu? Didnt Japan pass a law to stop discriminating against the Ainu at one point?
- cfcef 11y ago
  The Ainu barely exist anymore, and the whole thing about the Burakumin is that they aren't visible and all their descendants hide any connection. A better example would be the Korean descendant population, but that's still a tiny fraction of the population. (I think 1 million out of 130 million or <1%?) So there's no good comparison in Japan to the ~17% African-American population.
- MrMullen 11y ago
  There are hardly any pure Ainu anymore and they did not rebel against Japanese culture when they were discriminated against. Burakumin is more of a "They work in the wrong business" discrimination and is not based on skin color or a look. Burakumin tend to be Japanese in the Japanese culture and are not really outsiders.

drumdance 11y ago

They also have very homogenous populations with a strong, shared sense of cultural identity.

seren 11y ago
I am not sure that having a strong cultural identity as anything to do with drugs consumption. For example, I am pretty sure Russians also have a fairly homogenous population with a strong identity, and they still have an alcohol problem (for other reason I am sure). But I can't see the correlation or the causation here.
- cr1895 11y ago
  >I am not sure that having a strong cultural identity as anything to do with drugs consumption. Why can't it? Drug use could be socially shunned, counter to cultural norms. Consider Islamic countries where alcohol use is haram. Consider also that alcohol use in both Japan and Russia is culturally accepted. Alcoholism is a significant problem in Japan too.
- drumdance 11y ago
  Vodka is part of the Russian identity. Marijuana is not part of Hong Kong's identity.
  - ryanlol 11y ago
    HK has insane amounts of expats, significant amounts of which smoke weed. Probably almost half the expats I met, mostly rich young folks though so it's not surprising at all. If you're white and walking around during the night you'll constantly be approached by people trying to sell you weed and coke. (Steep prices, but significantly easier to find than in most western cities) Edit: Wrote that in a bit of a hurry. When talking about HK you need to take into account the massive income inequality between expats and many of the locals working "normal" jobs. Weed is rather expensive for many of the locals, but for some western bankers making 10k+ USD a month it's a relatively cheap way to take a break from the rather hectic life in HK.
  - 11y ago

jernfrost 11y ago

Very had to compare to Japan because Japan essentially legalize organized crime. Yakuza are allowed to operate as long as the follow a minimum set of laws. Basically Japan is following a tradeoff where they have chosen organized crime of lots of unorganized or violent crime. So it will be very hard to compare such a system with a western country which deals with these issues in such a different manner. I can mention that drug use is fairly low in my home country Norway as well despite pretty lax laws. We are doing something very wrong with respect to heavier drugs like heroin though since we have a lot of overdose cases. But Switzerland and the Netherlands seems to be quite good at this and they have very liberal laws.

Torgo 11y ago
Maybe we should legalize organized crime instead of drugs. The logic is about the same.
- droffel 11y ago
  How are legalizing drugs and legalizing crime in any way analogous? Legalizing crime doesn't even make sense, by definition.
  - Torgo 11y ago
    Extralegal mobs that keep out drug dealers.
    - Torgo 11y ago
      Downvoted by an abolitionist!
- zeveb 11y ago
  What are the traditional organised crimes? - numbers games: this is just a lottery, only with better payouts - drugs: already addressed - prostitution: legal in many countries - loan sharking: this is just lending to risky borrowers at market rates, when lending at market rates is made illegal - protection racket: the only real crime here (and, like numbers games, the State hates competition…) I'd be fine legalising all but the protection racket, because it really is a racket.

mc32 11y ago

Very good point; however one thing to keep in mind that in Japan, Singapore, HK etc., drugs use is seen by the great majority as a huge moral failure and a failure to the family. Social pressure and stigma of drugs use is much more severe. It's not glamorized as "stupid things teenagers do". It's vilified as "the depraved things failed human beings do". Interestingly this tack isn't one western societies have used in their toolbox to counter drugs abuse.