6 ms·

A few years ago, I dropped out of a decent but not top level MBA program after a quarter. Putting together my own + my classmates + my college friends at top 5

A few years ago, I dropped out of a decent but not top level MBA program after a quarter. Putting together my own + my classmates + my college friends at top 5 programs, my takeaway is that the 3 main reasons to enroll in one are (1) to switch industries (or roles within an industry), (2) to take time off without leaving a hole in your resume (matters a lot in nontechnical fields), and (3) gain a particular network that you lack (ex: Wharton for finance, Stanford for SV, etc.). These reasons may sound trivial but for the right kind of person, the program can be a decent~good trade for their time and money opportunity cost. The "move up the corporate chain" thing used to be more true (ex: you need to have a MBA to move up past a certain rung in the org chart) but is increasingly less so today. These days, if you're good, you're good. A noteworthy might be the "in-between" phase after the 2 year consulting or finance analyst program, but a large fraction of this cohort fits into (1) above. The "learning" is nonzero but seems underwhelming and not anywhere near worth the funds you need to put up. Frankly if you know what you want to be doing in the future, imo you'll learn more by actually spending those 2 years actually working and doing those things (which was my main reason for dropping out). It may make more sense if you're a pretty bright person who doesn't really know what you want to do in the future but you do know that it isn't what you're doing now (ex: my journalist friends who saw the industry as a dead end). edit: Also it's unwise to bucket all programs as "MBAs" since each one can be surprisingly different in what they offer in terms of concrete benefits. edit2: For young professionals without a strong signaling institution thus far in their academic and professional careers, an MBA may be one of the more feasible options to get a mulligan in this regard. Say what you will about paying up for a signal, but it can pay off depending on the role and industry you're going for.

msellout 11y ago
It's more difficult than you might expect to change industries after an MBA. Your internships and employers will still look for relevant experience. The best method would be to use the MBA to join a large consulting firm. You'll still need to network internally and beg to be staffed on projects outside your historical specialty.
- hkmurakami 11y ago
  Agreed that it's difficult. I think it's fair to say though that (1) it does increase one's chances of pulling it off and (2) it provides some lower risk ways of nudging your way towards relevance with coterm internships and (3) provides a path to a soft landing and saving face if things don't turn out exactly as planned. (3) is pretty appealing to the kind of individuals who consider these programs in the first place. edit: Worth mentioning is that the career offices of these programs definitely overstate the effectiveness of the "come to our program and get your dream job" aspect. In that sense it's similar to the misleading rhetoric of Law Schools.
- ryandrake 11y ago
  Definitely. Banks want former bankers. Consultant firms want former consultants. If you don't already have one of those backgrounds you're going to struggle in the job search. Have a back-up plan if you can't actually end up switching careers--make sure the $$$ adds up: You're blowing 2 years of opportunity cost and going into 6 digit debt for 10 years. Do the math and make it make sense. Also, regarding networking: 50-70% of your class-mates will not be career switchers: They'll already have banking or consulting backgrounds, already speak the language and know each other's firms. Make friends with them or you're not going to reap the much-touted "networking" benefits of MBA school. I went to a top-10 school, but happened to graduate the year Lehman and Bear imploded, and ended up right back in engineering. So, for me it ended up not being worth it financially--but for folks who graduated a few years before me it was totally worth it. Do the math and make sure you can deal with that risk.
  - mcv 11y ago
    Consultant firms don't want former consultants, they want people with experience in what they consult on, preferably at the kind of companies they consult at. My wife (working for the government, currently doing an MBA and looking for a career switch) has received offers from two consultant firms that are currently hired by her at the government. They both love ex-government workers, because it increases their expertise on how the government works, and it grows their network at the government.
basseq 11y ago
Your three reasons are spot on and match my experience. A friend of mine (in finance) did the opportunity cost calculations and figured it would cost $500k to go to a top-tier program (between tuition, room, board, supplies, missed salary, etc.). My main reason to go get a MBA would be to grow my network, but there are cheaper, faster, and more effective ways to accomplish that. Plus the average age of MBA grads seems to be getting lower. (True?) At this point, I'm 30, two levels above where my company brings on MBAs, and have MBA direct reports. So leaving to get a MBA seems like a step back.
- tixocloud 11y ago
  While it's great to do an opportunity cost, it'll also be good to evaluate the earning potential as well to be fair. You brought up a great point about the average age. If you're entering a school where the average age is low, I would say that it's not as useful unless you know that your classmates are young high-fliers who actually have solid experience.
  - basseq 11y ago
    True, though it's harder to calculate. The average salary for a Stanford MBA is $142,834. Believe that's less than what my friend was making at the time. So, using averages, it's a net loss. Of course, that's silly. There's still a MBA premium. Even if you assume $50k, you're talking 12 years to break even. That's simple math: you could take into account the time value of money or the fact that salary increases also impact future salary increases. We're still talking at least a decade, we're assuming the premium is real, and we're assuming that if you're at the far end of the curve (high earners, successful entrepreneurs, etc.), you're not going to be successful anyway. My friend's point was compounded by this fact: he could spend $500k more effectively elsewhere.
    - tixocloud 11y ago
      If your friend was looking to raise money and went for a Stanford MBA, his chances of getting funding are pretty significant according to this chart: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/aNjbh5KE0PvNCiLyA2g5T9NT5y4JckIUTqxCUSQEvDBa5V1Ycxgq8WyrwlE7bs9UmCHeu72GRLWCUYGMjd7JRX_0UoGe-IQG_Z8h6V8JXRHS31t9xq8fDEI-Rcg6Ih5mIIJGc4ra https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/aNjbh5KE0PvNCiLyA2g5T9NT5y... But agreed, the high premium is a pretty big burden if you don't succeed. Potentially crippling your future.
delazeur 11y ago
"(2) to take time off without leaving a hole in your resume (matters a lot in nontechnical fields)" Can anyone elaborate on how this is more important in nontechnical than technical fields? I've always thought this was a red flag no matter what your field may be, unless you have a good story to tell about why you took the break.
- betenoire 11y ago
  Just as an example, if an HR person took 2 years off, they probably spent 2 years NOT doing HR stuff.
  - delazeur 11y ago
    So the argument is that people with technical jobs are likely to do technical stuff outside of work? Or at minimum, have the capacity to do so? I'm skeptical that many recruiters and interviewers will buy into this. Even if you can show that you were contributing to open source projects or tinkering in your garage, there are still a lot of work skills that may have atrophied, like teamwork, writing & documentation, leadership, etc.
    - betenoire 11y ago
      Or that technical hirers are less likely to put the same weight on the gap, since there is no training or credentials or best practices to keep up with? Accountants need to know changing laws, other professions require periodic training, etc. IT seems to be more of, "can you and will you do it?"
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
jonnathanson 11y ago
"The "learning" is nonzero but seems underwhelming and not anywhere near worth the funds you need to put up. Frankly if you know what you want to be doing in the future, imo you'll learn more by actually spending those 2 years actually working and doing those things (which was my main reason for dropping out)." I agree with most of your points, but in this case I think you should consider how your personal circumstances influence your opinion. You spent one quarter in an MBA program. That's neither enough time, nor enough depth, from which to draw categorical conclusions about the quality of all MBA classes. More likely than not, you encountered some intro/core classes. Maybe an elective or two? But really, you were just scratching the surface. I'm not going to sit here with a straight face and claim that the MBA core curriculum offers the average intellectual depth and rigor of a graduate program in any of the hard sciences. Clearly it doesn't. But I do think there's depth to be found in an MBA program, provided you seek it out. That's kind of the issue with MBA programs, too: they are catch-all programs designed to service any number of diverse career outcomes. You can enter an MBA program seeking to become an investment banker, load up on the necessary courses called for by the field, and graduate having received a wildly different education than a classmate who went in to become a CPG brand marketer. Or a classmate who went in to run a web publishing business. Or a classmate who went in to take the reins of a Coca Cola bottling plant. Or a classmate who went in to learn the business side of industrial design. Or a classmate who went in as part of a JD/MBA program and wanted depth in IP case law. Etc. It's sort of like college that way. You get out of it what you put into it. MBA programs are notorious for graduating a number of people who took the path of least resistance: a bare-bones survey of a variety of topics, just enough to check the boxes for graduation. Nevertheless, you can wring plenty of depth and intellectual interest from the various subjects an MBA program has to offer. You just have to have the will to challenge yourself -- and for various reasons (many of them economically rational!), a lot of students choose not to.

msellout 11y ago

It's more difficult than you might expect to change industries after an MBA. Your internships and employers will still look for relevant experience. The best method would be to use the MBA to join a large consulting firm. You'll still need to network internally and beg to be staffed on projects outside your historical specialty.

hkmurakami 11y ago
Agreed that it's difficult. I think it's fair to say though that (1) it does increase one's chances of pulling it off and (2) it provides some lower risk ways of nudging your way towards relevance with coterm internships and (3) provides a path to a soft landing and saving face if things don't turn out exactly as planned. (3) is pretty appealing to the kind of individuals who consider these programs in the first place. edit: Worth mentioning is that the career offices of these programs definitely overstate the effectiveness of the "come to our program and get your dream job" aspect. In that sense it's similar to the misleading rhetoric of Law Schools.
ryandrake 11y ago
Definitely. Banks want former bankers. Consultant firms want former consultants. If you don't already have one of those backgrounds you're going to struggle in the job search. Have a back-up plan if you can't actually end up switching careers--make sure the $$$ adds up: You're blowing 2 years of opportunity cost and going into 6 digit debt for 10 years. Do the math and make it make sense. Also, regarding networking: 50-70% of your class-mates will not be career switchers: They'll already have banking or consulting backgrounds, already speak the language and know each other's firms. Make friends with them or you're not going to reap the much-touted "networking" benefits of MBA school. I went to a top-10 school, but happened to graduate the year Lehman and Bear imploded, and ended up right back in engineering. So, for me it ended up not being worth it financially--but for folks who graduated a few years before me it was totally worth it. Do the math and make sure you can deal with that risk.
- mcv 11y ago
  Consultant firms don't want former consultants, they want people with experience in what they consult on, preferably at the kind of companies they consult at. My wife (working for the government, currently doing an MBA and looking for a career switch) has received offers from two consultant firms that are currently hired by her at the government. They both love ex-government workers, because it increases their expertise on how the government works, and it grows their network at the government.

basseq 11y ago

Your three reasons are spot on and match my experience. A friend of mine (in finance) did the opportunity cost calculations and figured it would cost $500k to go to a top-tier program (between tuition, room, board, supplies, missed salary, etc.). My main reason to go get a MBA would be to grow my network, but there are cheaper, faster, and more effective ways to accomplish that. Plus the average age of MBA grads seems to be getting lower. (True?) At this point, I'm 30, two levels above where my company brings on MBAs, and have MBA direct reports. So leaving to get a MBA seems like a step back.

tixocloud 11y ago
While it's great to do an opportunity cost, it'll also be good to evaluate the earning potential as well to be fair. You brought up a great point about the average age. If you're entering a school where the average age is low, I would say that it's not as useful unless you know that your classmates are young high-fliers who actually have solid experience.
- basseq 11y ago
  True, though it's harder to calculate. The average salary for a Stanford MBA is $142,834. Believe that's less than what my friend was making at the time. So, using averages, it's a net loss. Of course, that's silly. There's still a MBA premium. Even if you assume $50k, you're talking 12 years to break even. That's simple math: you could take into account the time value of money or the fact that salary increases also impact future salary increases. We're still talking at least a decade, we're assuming the premium is real, and we're assuming that if you're at the far end of the curve (high earners, successful entrepreneurs, etc.), you're not going to be successful anyway. My friend's point was compounded by this fact: he could spend $500k more effectively elsewhere.
  - tixocloud 11y ago
    If your friend was looking to raise money and went for a Stanford MBA, his chances of getting funding are pretty significant according to this chart: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/aNjbh5KE0PvNCiLyA2g5T9NT5y4JckIUTqxCUSQEvDBa5V1Ycxgq8WyrwlE7bs9UmCHeu72GRLWCUYGMjd7JRX_0UoGe-IQG_Z8h6V8JXRHS31t9xq8fDEI-Rcg6Ih5mIIJGc4ra https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/aNjbh5KE0PvNCiLyA2g5T9NT5y... But agreed, the high premium is a pretty big burden if you don't succeed. Potentially crippling your future.

delazeur 11y ago

"(2) to take time off without leaving a hole in your resume (matters a lot in nontechnical fields)" Can anyone elaborate on how this is more important in nontechnical than technical fields? I've always thought this was a red flag no matter what your field may be, unless you have a good story to tell about why you took the break.

betenoire 11y ago
Just as an example, if an HR person took 2 years off, they probably spent 2 years NOT doing HR stuff.
- delazeur 11y ago
  So the argument is that people with technical jobs are likely to do technical stuff outside of work? Or at minimum, have the capacity to do so? I'm skeptical that many recruiters and interviewers will buy into this. Even if you can show that you were contributing to open source projects or tinkering in your garage, there are still a lot of work skills that may have atrophied, like teamwork, writing & documentation, leadership, etc.
  - betenoire 11y ago
    Or that technical hirers are less likely to put the same weight on the gap, since there is no training or credentials or best practices to keep up with? Accountants need to know changing laws, other professions require periodic training, etc. IT seems to be more of, "can you and will you do it?"

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

jonnathanson 11y ago

"The "learning" is nonzero but seems underwhelming and not anywhere near worth the funds you need to put up. Frankly if you know what you want to be doing in the future, imo you'll learn more by actually spending those 2 years actually working and doing those things (which was my main reason for dropping out)." I agree with most of your points, but in this case I think you should consider how your personal circumstances influence your opinion. You spent one quarter in an MBA program. That's neither enough time, nor enough depth, from which to draw categorical conclusions about the quality of all MBA classes. More likely than not, you encountered some intro/core classes. Maybe an elective or two? But really, you were just scratching the surface. I'm not going to sit here with a straight face and claim that the MBA core curriculum offers the average intellectual depth and rigor of a graduate program in any of the hard sciences. Clearly it doesn't. But I do think there's depth to be found in an MBA program, provided you seek it out. That's kind of the issue with MBA programs, too: they are catch-all programs designed to service any number of diverse career outcomes. You can enter an MBA program seeking to become an investment banker, load up on the necessary courses called for by the field, and graduate having received a wildly different education than a classmate who went in to become a CPG brand marketer. Or a classmate who went in to run a web publishing business. Or a classmate who went in to take the reins of a Coca Cola bottling plant. Or a classmate who went in to learn the business side of industrial design. Or a classmate who went in as part of a JD/MBA program and wanted depth in IP case law. Etc. It's sort of like college that way. You get out of it what you put into it. MBA programs are notorious for graduating a number of people who took the path of least resistance: a bare-bones survey of a variety of topics, just enough to check the boxes for graduation. Nevertheless, you can wring plenty of depth and intellectual interest from the various subjects an MBA program has to offer. You just have to have the will to challenge yourself -- and for various reasons (many of them economically rational!), a lot of students choose not to.