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I always wonder what would happen to drug use if it was widely and easily available. Would usage drop because it wouldn't be "rebellious" to get drugs? That wa

I always wonder what would happen to drug use if it was widely and easily available. Would usage drop because it wouldn't be "rebellious" to get drugs? That was at least the motivation for a lot of younger drug users I know. In my country (India), there is a region in the Himalayas - Kasaul - where marijuana grows in the wild. It is so easily accessible that you can literally pluck some on a walk through the forest. You'd expect with such easy availability, the locals would be all addled on weed/hashish all the time. Yet, most locals tend to be non-users. Most users tend to be tourists and outsiders who come solely for the purportedly "best in the world" hashish

madaxe_again 11y ago
Oscar Wilde put it best: desire makes everything blossom and flourish; possession makes everything wither and fade. Humans tend to want what they can't have - it's reactance in action.
jdietrich 11y ago
Portugal decriminalised personal possession of drugs 15 years ago, which has given us some useful evidence. HIV infection rates and drug-related deaths have reduced significantly, and the prison population has reduced by over 50%. The proportion of people who have ever used drugs has increased slightly, but there has been a reduction in the number of regular drug users. We don't really know what would happen in a laissez-faire system, but we can be fairly confident that a medicalised approach would have substantial positive effects. https://www.unodc.org/documents/ungass2016/Contributions/Civil/Transform-Drug-Policy-Foundation/Drug-decriminalisation-in-Portugal.pdf https://www.unodc.org/documents/ungass2016/Contributions/Civ...
- jfmfhhdkdkd 11y ago
  But Japan and Hong Kong and many others still have far lower drug use and crime rates despite their very tough laws on drug use, when compared to Portugal.
  - parenthephobia 11y ago
    The rational conclusion seems to be that whether drugs are legal, or decriminalized, are, at best, only part of what determines levels of drug use and drug-related crime.
  - ZeroGravitas 11y ago
    The article states that research shows no correlation between severe drug penalties and usage levels. There's a few people offering anecdotes to counter that, but obviously actual research wins, the difference between Portugal and Japan are therefore likely to be cultural differences outside of strict drug laws.
    - rqebmm 11y ago
      > cultural differences outside of strict drug laws It's also worth noting that a culture that discourages drug use would likely be more accepting of strict drug control laws.
  - cr1895 11y ago
    Japan and Hong Kong are culturally very different from Portugal, which makes comparison to Portugal difficult. Something interesting to consider is alcohol use in Japan vs. elsewhere: http://www.cmaj.ca/content/167/4/388.1.full http://www.cmaj.ca/content/167/4/388.1.full
  - gbog 11y ago
    China, too, have a far lower drug use rate. Not sure for Japan and Hk, but for China I think there are two main reasons. One, she was "locked in turmoil" during the 70s and the 80s, so did not get the influence from this period. Two, most young people are busy making their life, and have actually good hope to have a much better life than their parents (which is not that difficult).
    - rwmj 11y ago
      China has a problem with Ketamine addiction, not helped by whole villages that mass produce the drug. There was a good documentary about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxXvTi3QRwA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxXvTi3QRwA
oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
Personally speaking (although I'm hardly one of the "younger drug users" you refer to), I would continue to consume more or less the same quantity of drugs that I do now. I would possibly increase my intake very slightly, but not significantly. The significant differences would be that I would probably pay less, I would be consuming safer, regulated substances, and I wouldn't constantly be in fear of being sent to prison for a personal lifestyle choice. Unless the penalties drastically increase, or I am convinced that what I am doing is morally wrong, I shall probably continue to take my drug of choice for the foreseeable future. From what I've heard, the marijuana that grows in the wild tends to be of a far lower quality than that which is cultivated.
- saiya-jin 11y ago
  same for me, but I hate smoking. if things would be legal, I would much MUCH prefer different, non harmful way to consume it (food, of vaporizing some pure extract in e-cigarette style). usual vaporizers are only somewhere in the middle, plus more inconvenient. I don't care so much about pricing, amsterdam levels would be OK for me. I consume so little that I would be OK even with higher pricing. But I could actually choose what type of effect, strength etc. I want, rather than random, mostly weak & expensive street stuff, bought from shady characters in dark alleys. Unless society will be handling death/for life penalties for pure consumation here, I am not stopping consuming of a plant that used to grow all round us, was heavily subsidized when US colonies got independence etc. It just doesn't make sense, this is one of the cases of laws that are plain wrong (in case of this plant and all possible products from it). If there is such an immoral law, it actually feels good breaking it (but still preferring clean, legal, market-driven scenario).
  - drumdance 11y ago
    Re: more drug choices -- that's exactly what's happening here in Colorado. There's a huge variety of choice. And at the dispensaries the staff generally very knowledgable, so it's almost like buying wine.
    - saiya-jin 11y ago
furyg3 11y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annual_cannabis_use_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annual_cannabis_use_by_country In the Netherlands, where marijuana is effectively legal†, the percentage of the population aged 15-64 which has used the drug at least once in the past year was 5.4 (2005). In the US the data was from 2009 (pre-legalization in Oregon and Colorado), and was 13.7% Anecdata: I've lived in both places, weed just isn't as cool in NL as it is in the US. † Use of marijuana in NL is totally decriminalized and it is easily purchasable by anyone over 18.
- soylentcola 11y ago
  When I was quite a bit younger and did a semester abroad (from the US) I became friends with several Dutch students in our dorm/hostel. I remember, being the naive 19-year-old that I was, asking how cool it was that weed was legal there and stuff like that. They mostly looked at me with a tolerant but exhausted expression and said that it was more of a tourist thing. The impression I got was that it was treated by everyone the way I now look at teens who constantly talk about smoking cannabis or getting drunk as if it was the coolest thing ever. Basically it was like "yeah, sure, it's legal but come on, only dipshits make it out to be something more than a minor vice or guilty pleasure to be indulged infrequently".
  - TulliusCicero 11y ago
    I wonder if this is related to quality of life. A country like the Netherlands with stronger social services/safety nets and more 'liveable' cities must have much better quality of life for the bottom quintile of society compared to the states, and it's that quintile that is most likely to get addicted/cause other social problems. It seems like a common thread through people getting addicted to drugs is trying to find an escape for a crappy/desperate life, so logically if it's less crappy people won't need an escape as much, right?
- cr1895 11y ago
  Worth noting that the government in the NL is working quite hard to make it less tolerated, e.g. shuttering coffeeshops through legitimate grievances such as selling to minors or through "neighborhood improvement" or "too near a school" reasons and by criminalizing the aiding of production (taken to absurd levels such that innocent garden supply shops can be criminally liable). Production has already been and remains illegal, and the government has rejected calls by various cities to experiment with sanctioned growing. It's quite an absurd situation, honestly.
analog31 11y ago
In the US culture, I think a lot would depend on marketing and advertising. Consider the marketing of high fructose corn syrup, which is cheap, legal, hardly "rebellious," possibly a sort of low-grade high, and consumed in toxic quantities. I'm not arguing against legalization. But I had a similar conversation with my kids about legalizing pot. I told them that whatever the health aspects of pot use are, the pot industry would use all of the tactics of the tobacco industry, to market pot as "cool" and perfectly safe.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- jMyles 11y ago
  It's not unreasonable to suggest that HFCS is in fact more toxic and more dangerous than any whole-plant drug. (and I mean traditional plant medicines here, not, obviously, hemlock and the like :-)
  - maxerickson 11y ago
    Lots of plants that have medicinal effects are immediately dangerous, especially compared to what ends up being a poor diet choice that takes a while to have much of any effect. "Medicinal" partly implies that a small amount of the substance will have an impact on the body, and there are many substances in plants where the dose does matter.
- fsloth 11y ago
  Where I live it's illegal for tobacco companies to market their product. In any way. Anywhere. They are hidden in the shops and if one wants to buy it one needs to specifically ask for it.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- drumdance 11y ago
  High fructose corn syrup isn't marketed to consumers. It's marketed to corporations that otherwise would use sugar. Sugar is much more expensive in the US than elsewhere because of BS tariffs advocated for by Florida sugar barons.
cr1895 11y ago
>In my country (India), there is a region in the Himalayas - Kasaul - where marijuana grows in the wild. It is so easily accessible that you can literally pluck some on a walk through the forest. e.g. Hindu Kush. Interestingly, cannabis has been used in India since 2000BCE. Aren't there some tolerated/accepted uses of cannabis in India? I suppose what I'm really asking is it actually tourists or aren't there some significant traditional uses such as bhang? I can certainly understand that some users would just be tourists, but most I'm not sure of.
agumonkey 11y ago
I believe so, I believe most kids are doing it because it's taboo and feels something adventurous to experience. Now legalizing drugs would also give standards and tests. Instead of potentially toxic you'd get something tested (you may get shitty product still but the producer will get busted and closed easily).
norea-armozel 11y ago
Culture always shapes how we view substances. For folks in that region I'm not sure there's any stigma attached but I'll take a guess by saying they probably don't see it as a viable past time or fun to consume.
Synaesthesia 11y ago
Before drugs were criminalizes in the early 20th centuries they were easily available at pharmacies, cocaine, heroin, p even hashish tinctures. The addiction rate was approxiamately the same as it is today, about 7% of the population. Most people don't get addicted to drugs, and don't want to abuse drugs. It's more of a psychological disorder, particularly exacerbated by childhood trauma and despair.
Noos 11y ago
No more than gambling usage has dropped because it's no longer rebellious to gamble. Gambling legalization is very close to drug legalization in my opinion, and that has shown that usage will increase, and the behavior will be destigmatized.

madaxe_again 11y ago

Oscar Wilde put it best: desire makes everything blossom and flourish; possession makes everything wither and fade. Humans tend to want what they can't have - it's reactance in action.

jdietrich 11y ago

Portugal decriminalised personal possession of drugs 15 years ago, which has given us some useful evidence. HIV infection rates and drug-related deaths have reduced significantly, and the prison population has reduced by over 50%. The proportion of people who have ever used drugs has increased slightly, but there has been a reduction in the number of regular drug users. We don't really know what would happen in a laissez-faire system, but we can be fairly confident that a medicalised approach would have substantial positive effects. https://www.unodc.org/documents/ungass2016/Contributions/Civil/Transform-Drug-Policy-Foundation/Drug-decriminalisation-in-Portugal.pdf https://www.unodc.org/documents/ungass2016/Contributions/Civ...

jfmfhhdkdkd 11y ago
But Japan and Hong Kong and many others still have far lower drug use and crime rates despite their very tough laws on drug use, when compared to Portugal.
- parenthephobia 11y ago
  The rational conclusion seems to be that whether drugs are legal, or decriminalized, are, at best, only part of what determines levels of drug use and drug-related crime.
- ZeroGravitas 11y ago
  The article states that research shows no correlation between severe drug penalties and usage levels. There's a few people offering anecdotes to counter that, but obviously actual research wins, the difference between Portugal and Japan are therefore likely to be cultural differences outside of strict drug laws.
  - rqebmm 11y ago
    > cultural differences outside of strict drug laws It's also worth noting that a culture that discourages drug use would likely be more accepting of strict drug control laws.
- cr1895 11y ago
  Japan and Hong Kong are culturally very different from Portugal, which makes comparison to Portugal difficult. Something interesting to consider is alcohol use in Japan vs. elsewhere: http://www.cmaj.ca/content/167/4/388.1.full http://www.cmaj.ca/content/167/4/388.1.full
- gbog 11y ago
  China, too, have a far lower drug use rate. Not sure for Japan and Hk, but for China I think there are two main reasons. One, she was "locked in turmoil" during the 70s and the 80s, so did not get the influence from this period. Two, most young people are busy making their life, and have actually good hope to have a much better life than their parents (which is not that difficult).
  - rwmj 11y ago
    China has a problem with Ketamine addiction, not helped by whole villages that mass produce the drug. There was a good documentary about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxXvTi3QRwA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxXvTi3QRwA

oneeyedpigeon 11y ago

Personally speaking (although I'm hardly one of the "younger drug users" you refer to), I would continue to consume more or less the same quantity of drugs that I do now. I would possibly increase my intake very slightly, but not significantly. The significant differences would be that I would probably pay less, I would be consuming safer, regulated substances, and I wouldn't constantly be in fear of being sent to prison for a personal lifestyle choice. Unless the penalties drastically increase, or I am convinced that what I am doing is morally wrong, I shall probably continue to take my drug of choice for the foreseeable future. From what I've heard, the marijuana that grows in the wild tends to be of a far lower quality than that which is cultivated.

saiya-jin 11y ago
same for me, but I hate smoking. if things would be legal, I would much MUCH prefer different, non harmful way to consume it (food, of vaporizing some pure extract in e-cigarette style). usual vaporizers are only somewhere in the middle, plus more inconvenient. I don't care so much about pricing, amsterdam levels would be OK for me. I consume so little that I would be OK even with higher pricing. But I could actually choose what type of effect, strength etc. I want, rather than random, mostly weak & expensive street stuff, bought from shady characters in dark alleys. Unless society will be handling death/for life penalties for pure consumation here, I am not stopping consuming of a plant that used to grow all round us, was heavily subsidized when US colonies got independence etc. It just doesn't make sense, this is one of the cases of laws that are plain wrong (in case of this plant and all possible products from it). If there is such an immoral law, it actually feels good breaking it (but still preferring clean, legal, market-driven scenario).
- drumdance 11y ago
  Re: more drug choices -- that's exactly what's happening here in Colorado. There's a huge variety of choice. And at the dispensaries the staff generally very knowledgable, so it's almost like buying wine.
  - saiya-jin 11y ago

furyg3 11y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annual_cannabis_use_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annual_cannabis_use_by_country In the Netherlands, where marijuana is effectively legal†, the percentage of the population aged 15-64 which has used the drug at least once in the past year was 5.4 (2005). In the US the data was from 2009 (pre-legalization in Oregon and Colorado), and was 13.7% Anecdata: I've lived in both places, weed just isn't as cool in NL as it is in the US. † Use of marijuana in NL is totally decriminalized and it is easily purchasable by anyone over 18.

soylentcola 11y ago
When I was quite a bit younger and did a semester abroad (from the US) I became friends with several Dutch students in our dorm/hostel. I remember, being the naive 19-year-old that I was, asking how cool it was that weed was legal there and stuff like that. They mostly looked at me with a tolerant but exhausted expression and said that it was more of a tourist thing. The impression I got was that it was treated by everyone the way I now look at teens who constantly talk about smoking cannabis or getting drunk as if it was the coolest thing ever. Basically it was like "yeah, sure, it's legal but come on, only dipshits make it out to be something more than a minor vice or guilty pleasure to be indulged infrequently".
- TulliusCicero 11y ago
  I wonder if this is related to quality of life. A country like the Netherlands with stronger social services/safety nets and more 'liveable' cities must have much better quality of life for the bottom quintile of society compared to the states, and it's that quintile that is most likely to get addicted/cause other social problems. It seems like a common thread through people getting addicted to drugs is trying to find an escape for a crappy/desperate life, so logically if it's less crappy people won't need an escape as much, right?
cr1895 11y ago
Worth noting that the government in the NL is working quite hard to make it less tolerated, e.g. shuttering coffeeshops through legitimate grievances such as selling to minors or through "neighborhood improvement" or "too near a school" reasons and by criminalizing the aiding of production (taken to absurd levels such that innocent garden supply shops can be criminally liable). Production has already been and remains illegal, and the government has rejected calls by various cities to experiment with sanctioned growing. It's quite an absurd situation, honestly.

analog31 11y ago

In the US culture, I think a lot would depend on marketing and advertising. Consider the marketing of high fructose corn syrup, which is cheap, legal, hardly "rebellious," possibly a sort of low-grade high, and consumed in toxic quantities. I'm not arguing against legalization. But I had a similar conversation with my kids about legalizing pot. I told them that whatever the health aspects of pot use are, the pot industry would use all of the tactics of the tobacco industry, to market pot as "cool" and perfectly safe.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
jMyles 11y ago
It's not unreasonable to suggest that HFCS is in fact more toxic and more dangerous than any whole-plant drug. (and I mean traditional plant medicines here, not, obviously, hemlock and the like :-)
- maxerickson 11y ago
  Lots of plants that have medicinal effects are immediately dangerous, especially compared to what ends up being a poor diet choice that takes a while to have much of any effect. "Medicinal" partly implies that a small amount of the substance will have an impact on the body, and there are many substances in plants where the dose does matter.
fsloth 11y ago
Where I live it's illegal for tobacco companies to market their product. In any way. Anywhere. They are hidden in the shops and if one wants to buy it one needs to specifically ask for it.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
drumdance 11y ago
High fructose corn syrup isn't marketed to consumers. It's marketed to corporations that otherwise would use sugar. Sugar is much more expensive in the US than elsewhere because of BS tariffs advocated for by Florida sugar barons.

cr1895 11y ago

>In my country (India), there is a region in the Himalayas - Kasaul - where marijuana grows in the wild. It is so easily accessible that you can literally pluck some on a walk through the forest. e.g. Hindu Kush. Interestingly, cannabis has been used in India since 2000BCE. Aren't there some tolerated/accepted uses of cannabis in India? I suppose what I'm really asking is it actually tourists or aren't there some significant traditional uses such as bhang? I can certainly understand that some users would just be tourists, but most I'm not sure of.

agumonkey 11y ago

I believe so, I believe most kids are doing it because it's taboo and feels something adventurous to experience. Now legalizing drugs would also give standards and tests. Instead of potentially toxic you'd get something tested (you may get shitty product still but the producer will get busted and closed easily).

norea-armozel 11y ago

Culture always shapes how we view substances. For folks in that region I'm not sure there's any stigma attached but I'll take a guess by saying they probably don't see it as a viable past time or fun to consume.

Synaesthesia 11y ago

Before drugs were criminalizes in the early 20th centuries they were easily available at pharmacies, cocaine, heroin, p even hashish tinctures. The addiction rate was approxiamately the same as it is today, about 7% of the population. Most people don't get addicted to drugs, and don't want to abuse drugs. It's more of a psychological disorder, particularly exacerbated by childhood trauma and despair.

Noos 11y ago

No more than gambling usage has dropped because it's no longer rebellious to gamble. Gambling legalization is very close to drug legalization in my opinion, and that has shown that usage will increase, and the behavior will be destigmatized.