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Except digital signing makes the compromised OS totally and utterly useless for other phones. Changing the OS would cause the signature check to fail. And if y

by rtpg 11y ago

Except digital signing makes the compromised OS totally and utterly useless for other phones. Changing the OS would cause the signature check to fail. And if you can get around the digital signage, you don't need the compromised OS. Conway's technical interpretation of the Apple deliverables is right. There's a legal precedent which could cause reuse (and is rightly matter for debate/utter refusal of the FBI position), but if you just debate the technical merits Apple has been very misleading about the consequences.

simonh 11y ago
For this one case you're right because the FBI will allow Apple to lock the special OS build to this device's ID. The problem is if the FBI can force Apple to create a special build to order, with features specified by the FBI, they can also be ordered by the FBI to create an OS build that isn't locked to one device. And if the FBI can make them do this, so can any law enforcement or government agency capable of finding an amenable judge, such as say the CIA, the DEA, the NSA, or any random public prosecutor. THAT is the problem.
- mistermumble 11y ago
  Not to mention that once this is done in the US, what is to prevent other governments in countries where Apple does business to compel Apple to do the same? China (or Russia or Germany or whoever) could force Apple to backdoor phones used by CIA informants in that country.
  - fredsir 11y ago
    And the fact that who is to assure that Apple doesn't leave one or multiple bugs around that makes the compromised OS not so tied to a single device as they meant it to be? It's a ticking bomb, man.
- russell_h 11y ago
  The FBI can't legally do any of that.
AnthonyMouse 11y ago
> And if you can get around the digital signage, you don't need the compromised OS. Not necessarily. Someone could get their hands on the signing keys or find a vulnerability in the signature verification without having the knowledge or resources to create something worth signing. Or figure out a way to bypass the check by changing something that isn't covered by the signature, or use something like rowhammer or hardware hacking to flip the bit from saying the check failed to saying the check passed, etc.
vehementi 11y ago
It is useful on other phones if someone figures out how to hack whatever mechanism is used to do the phone ID check. If that happens, suddenly this patch works vs all phones
jaawn 11y ago
"Except digital signing makes the compromised OS totally and utterly useless for other phones." This carries with it the assumption that the digital signing and verification mechanisms are infallible and impervious to attack. That is an unwise assumption. Even if a software system appears to be perfectly secure at a given time, it is reasonable to assume that at some point a vulnerability will be discovered.
wila 11y ago
> And if you can get around the digital signage, you don't need the compromised OS. signing <> encrypting

by rtpg 11y ago

simonh 11y ago

For this one case you're right because the FBI will allow Apple to lock the special OS build to this device's ID. The problem is if the FBI can force Apple to create a special build to order, with features specified by the FBI, they can also be ordered by the FBI to create an OS build that isn't locked to one device. And if the FBI can make them do this, so can any law enforcement or government agency capable of finding an amenable judge, such as say the CIA, the DEA, the NSA, or any random public prosecutor. THAT is the problem.

mistermumble 11y ago
Not to mention that once this is done in the US, what is to prevent other governments in countries where Apple does business to compel Apple to do the same? China (or Russia or Germany or whoever) could force Apple to backdoor phones used by CIA informants in that country.
- fredsir 11y ago
  And the fact that who is to assure that Apple doesn't leave one or multiple bugs around that makes the compromised OS not so tied to a single device as they meant it to be? It's a ticking bomb, man.
russell_h 11y ago
The FBI can't legally do any of that.

AnthonyMouse 11y ago

> And if you can get around the digital signage, you don't need the compromised OS. Not necessarily. Someone could get their hands on the signing keys or find a vulnerability in the signature verification without having the knowledge or resources to create something worth signing. Or figure out a way to bypass the check by changing something that isn't covered by the signature, or use something like rowhammer or hardware hacking to flip the bit from saying the check failed to saying the check passed, etc.

vehementi 11y ago

It is useful on other phones if someone figures out how to hack whatever mechanism is used to do the phone ID check. If that happens, suddenly this patch works vs all phones

jaawn 11y ago

"Except digital signing makes the compromised OS totally and utterly useless for other phones." This carries with it the assumption that the digital signing and verification mechanisms are infallible and impervious to attack. That is an unwise assumption. Even if a software system appears to be perfectly secure at a given time, it is reasonable to assume that at some point a vulnerability will be discovered.

wila 11y ago

> And if you can get around the digital signage, you don't need the compromised OS. signing <> encrypting