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I'd say it's conjecture that "far more Americans immigrate to feel freer, safer, better protected". Where's that source? Where are they going that's "freer" an

I'd say it's conjecture that "far more Americans immigrate to feel freer, safer, better protected". Where's that source? Where are they going that's "freer" and "safer". I'm not saying there aren't areas that are more free, however the hell you define that. There might even be safer places, although that's a ridiculous generalization of the United States. It's all relative to your race, religion, location, economic situation. That sounds absurd.

davidw 11y ago
The homicide rate in the US is certainly higher than many places in Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... That wasn't the chief reason I lived there though. The health care system in the US is a godawful mess. OTOH, the US is a pretty wealthy place with lots of good stuff going on. I'm sure everyone has their own reasons.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- thieving_magpie 11y ago
  The homicide rate is higher than Europe, if that's really the gold standard for you. As you know, the US is a pretty big place. We don't get a lot of murders out here in Montana. Healthcare's a pain, sure. Still there's no evidence that any meaningful amount of people are leaving for the bastion of freedom that is Europe, which I find laughable. Ask an Arab around Paris how safe they feel.
  - davidw 11y ago
    > We don't get a lot of murders out here in Montana. Actually, statistically speaking, you do. The rate is 3.6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_homicid... for Montana, as compared to Italy at 0.9, Germany and Spain at 0.8. All things considered, I doubt anyone moves to Europe for that reason alone, as there are plenty of places in the US where the numbers are fairly low.
    - thieving_magpie 11y ago
      My individual state has 2.7 more murders per 100,000 people than Germany and suddenly I "statistically speaking" have a lot of murders in my state? We interpret statistics differently.
      - themagician 11y ago
        I duhno. That sounds pretty brutal to me. Especially that poor person who was 70% murdered.
      - dalke 11y ago
        The homicide rate in Montana is 4.5x higher than Germany. How is that not "a lot of murders" by comparison? Or, rather, what does "a lot of murders" mean to you?
        thieving_magpie 11y ago
        Here we go again with trying to make the number seem bigger. It's 3 murders per 100,000 people. No, that isn't a lot to me. I'm completely fine and feel safe knowing I have a 0.000036 percent chance of being murdered next year.
        dalke 11y ago
        What does "a lot of murders" mean to you?
        dalke 11y ago
        Without an answer, I'll go back to your "Ask an Arab around Paris how safe they feel". The 2012 homicide rate in Paris is 1.8 / 100,000, according to the "Homicide counts and rates in the most populous city, time series 2005-2012" spreadsheet available from linked from http://www.unodc.org/gsh/en/data.html http://www.unodc.org/gsh/en/data.html . The total count was 41, so an overall population of 2.2 million. To confirm, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Paris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Paris says "The city of Paris (also called the Commune or Department of Paris) had a population of 2,241,346 people within its administrative city limits as of January 1, 2014". It's hard to know the ethic breakdown of everyone who was murdered. That last URL says there are 436,576 immigrants in the city of Paris. I'll assume 2/3rds of those are Arabs, based on the '2011 Census Paris Region; Country/territory of birth' chart from that page, and assume that there are no non-Arab homicides. This is, of course, going to give a very high number compared to the actual number: That gives a homicide rate of 41 / (436576*2/3) = 14/100,000, compared to Montana's 3.6. This absurd number is still less than 4x of homicide rate in Montana. Under your logic, an Arab in Paris should not feel unsafe due to threat of being murdered. Why should we think that Montana is safer for you than Paris is for an Arab?
whybroke 11y ago
Every American I know who has lived in Holland says they felt freer. That's all I can offer on that. In Montana, you can't smoke a joint in a cafe, can't sun bathe naked on the beach, can't drink a beer walking in the park and, regarding safety, you'd be unwise to be a gay couple holding hands in town, have cancer and loose your job etc. But feeling free and safe is subjective and the number leaving is not large. But it is vastly larger than those leaving for tax reasons is my point.
- thieving_magpie 11y ago
  >In Montana, you can't smoke a joint in a cafe, can't sun bathe naked on the beach, can't drink a beer walking in the park and, regarding safety, you'd be unwise to be a gay couple holding hands in town etc. We don't really have much beachfront property in Montana, though I've seen plenty of naked folks in the rivers. Montanans are intensely private people and proud of it. I have never heard my gay friends mention being unwelcome, though I'll certainly not speak for them here. I've never been stopped drinking beer in a park, though yes it isn't legal in my town (although not true of all towns in Montana like Butte). Sorry that you can't smoke a joint in a cafe right now, however you can pretty much smoke it anywhere else in public so long as you don't bother others. I'm guessing Americans that moved to Holland are probably pretty happy there. That says absolutely nothing about the United States.
  - whybroke 11y ago
    >I'm guessing Americans that moved to Holland are probably pretty happy there. That says absolutely nothing about the United States. True and I personally would recommend everyone who can, try to live in both places as each suits different temperaments. And I do not mean to denigrate Montana particularly which surely has virtues. But at the risk of being provocative I would cite this billboard near Malad city which simply would not exist in Europe. http://i.imgur.com/MDSWg.jpg http://i.imgur.com/MDSWg.jpg
    - steve-howard 11y ago
      That's pretty shocking even for America. Malad City is pretty remote (population around 2000), but I've never seen a more literal example of "clinging to guns and religion."

davidw 11y ago

The homicide rate in the US is certainly higher than many places in Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... That wasn't the chief reason I lived there though. The health care system in the US is a godawful mess. OTOH, the US is a pretty wealthy place with lots of good stuff going on. I'm sure everyone has their own reasons.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
thieving_magpie 11y ago
The homicide rate is higher than Europe, if that's really the gold standard for you. As you know, the US is a pretty big place. We don't get a lot of murders out here in Montana. Healthcare's a pain, sure. Still there's no evidence that any meaningful amount of people are leaving for the bastion of freedom that is Europe, which I find laughable. Ask an Arab around Paris how safe they feel.
- davidw 11y ago
  > We don't get a lot of murders out here in Montana. Actually, statistically speaking, you do. The rate is 3.6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_homicid... for Montana, as compared to Italy at 0.9, Germany and Spain at 0.8. All things considered, I doubt anyone moves to Europe for that reason alone, as there are plenty of places in the US where the numbers are fairly low.
  - thieving_magpie 11y ago
    My individual state has 2.7 more murders per 100,000 people than Germany and suddenly I "statistically speaking" have a lot of murders in my state? We interpret statistics differently.
    - themagician 11y ago
      I duhno. That sounds pretty brutal to me. Especially that poor person who was 70% murdered.
    - dalke 11y ago
      The homicide rate in Montana is 4.5x higher than Germany. How is that not "a lot of murders" by comparison? Or, rather, what does "a lot of murders" mean to you?
      - thieving_magpie 11y ago
        Here we go again with trying to make the number seem bigger. It's 3 murders per 100,000 people. No, that isn't a lot to me. I'm completely fine and feel safe knowing I have a 0.000036 percent chance of being murdered next year.
        dalke 11y ago
        What does "a lot of murders" mean to you?
        dalke 11y ago
        Without an answer, I'll go back to your "Ask an Arab around Paris how safe they feel". The 2012 homicide rate in Paris is 1.8 / 100,000, according to the "Homicide counts and rates in the most populous city, time series 2005-2012" spreadsheet available from linked from http://www.unodc.org/gsh/en/data.html http://www.unodc.org/gsh/en/data.html . The total count was 41, so an overall population of 2.2 million. To confirm, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Paris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Paris says "The city of Paris (also called the Commune or Department of Paris) had a population of 2,241,346 people within its administrative city limits as of January 1, 2014". It's hard to know the ethic breakdown of everyone who was murdered. That last URL says there are 436,576 immigrants in the city of Paris. I'll assume 2/3rds of those are Arabs, based on the '2011 Census Paris Region; Country/territory of birth' chart from that page, and assume that there are no non-Arab homicides. This is, of course, going to give a very high number compared to the actual number: That gives a homicide rate of 41 / (436576*2/3) = 14/100,000, compared to Montana's 3.6. This absurd number is still less than 4x of homicide rate in Montana. Under your logic, an Arab in Paris should not feel unsafe due to threat of being murdered. Why should we think that Montana is safer for you than Paris is for an Arab?

whybroke 11y ago

Every American I know who has lived in Holland says they felt freer. That's all I can offer on that. In Montana, you can't smoke a joint in a cafe, can't sun bathe naked on the beach, can't drink a beer walking in the park and, regarding safety, you'd be unwise to be a gay couple holding hands in town, have cancer and loose your job etc. But feeling free and safe is subjective and the number leaving is not large. But it is vastly larger than those leaving for tax reasons is my point.

thieving_magpie 11y ago
>In Montana, you can't smoke a joint in a cafe, can't sun bathe naked on the beach, can't drink a beer walking in the park and, regarding safety, you'd be unwise to be a gay couple holding hands in town etc. We don't really have much beachfront property in Montana, though I've seen plenty of naked folks in the rivers. Montanans are intensely private people and proud of it. I have never heard my gay friends mention being unwelcome, though I'll certainly not speak for them here. I've never been stopped drinking beer in a park, though yes it isn't legal in my town (although not true of all towns in Montana like Butte). Sorry that you can't smoke a joint in a cafe right now, however you can pretty much smoke it anywhere else in public so long as you don't bother others. I'm guessing Americans that moved to Holland are probably pretty happy there. That says absolutely nothing about the United States.
- whybroke 11y ago
  >I'm guessing Americans that moved to Holland are probably pretty happy there. That says absolutely nothing about the United States. True and I personally would recommend everyone who can, try to live in both places as each suits different temperaments. And I do not mean to denigrate Montana particularly which surely has virtues. But at the risk of being provocative I would cite this billboard near Malad city which simply would not exist in Europe. http://i.imgur.com/MDSWg.jpg http://i.imgur.com/MDSWg.jpg
  - steve-howard 11y ago
    That's pretty shocking even for America. Malad City is pretty remote (population around 2000), but I've never seen a more literal example of "clinging to guns and religion."