2 ms·

Congrats. Mine didn't. I'm "not clear on what the value proposition" is in replacing "something as straightforward, reliable, and inexpensive as a thermostat" w

by dalke 11y ago

Congrats. Mine didn't. I'm "not clear on what the value proposition" is in replacing "something as straightforward, reliable, and inexpensive as a thermostat" with a more expensive, error-prone timer-based thermostat with a additional fault modes.

marssaxman 11y ago
I don't know either; it came with the house. It hasn't proven to be error-prone, though, probably because devices like it have been available off-the-shelf for thirty years.
- dalke 11y ago
  The equivalent of the you of 30 years ago would have asked the same questions about the then-new programmable timer-based devices. The equivalent of you in 30 years might, on the other hand, consider secure network-controlled thermostats to be normal off-the-shelf technology.
  - marssaxman 11y ago
    Sure, I'm aware of that process, but that's not really what I'm asking. Thirty years ago, were I feeling skeptical about programmable thermostats, I could have asked why such a thing would be worthwhile, and someone could have explained how I could save money on heating by having my house cool down while I was asleep and then warm up again before I got up in the morning. We could then have a reasonable conversation about the risks and benefits of the new technology, about whether this new ability justified the increased cost and decreased reliability implied by the added automation. With this IoT stuff, though, I feel like someone is trying to sell me glow-in-the-dark sunglasses, or an electric belt buckle. Okay, so you can embed a TCP stack and a terrible web interface in this gadget, that's great, but so what? What problem is it supposed to solve? I can't even have the conversation about whether this technology is worth its extra cost, because nobody within my filter-bubble is explaining what the potential benefit is supposed to be. I'm commenting about it here because I hope somebody can point me to wherever it is that people are talking about the potential benefits of IOT devices, which might even theoretically justify them, because right now all I see are lots of really obvious downsides.
    - dalke 11y ago
      paulddraper's answer gave two examples of new abilities - the ability switch to vacation mode after starting a long trip, and the ability to turn the heat on shortly before arriving home. You write: "With this IoT stuff, though, I feel like someone is trying to sell me glow-in-the-dark sunglasses" I think a better example is, why in the early 1980s would you want to buy a microcomputer? Here's an example from 1983 concerning the IBM PCjr - https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1320&dat=19831230&id=isYxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=m-kDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2959,4276070&hl=e https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1320&dat=19831230&id=... . It came with 12 miniprograms, used 'to put the first-time user at ease', include 'a word game, a recipe organizer, a home-loan calculator and a checkbook program'. Does that sound like it's worth $1,000 in 1983 dollars ($2,300 in 2016 dollars)? FWIW, my personal experience is that it wasn't worthwhile on an early 1980s micro to keep track of recipes or the checkbook. Certainly others thought otherwise, but for many people the practical uses were also an excuse to buy a machine that you could play games on. So, perhaps think of the many IoT devices as fun games for the early adopters, rather than a serious cost savings that the last adopters would want?
      - marssaxman 11y ago
        That makes sense. I wish I knew what the IoT equivalent of a video game was, though. And while early-80s computers may not have actually done that many practical things, there were at least lots of speculative articles enthusing about the practical things they would be doing in the near future, and decades' worth of science fiction imagining impractical things they might be doing in the farther future. With the IoT, I don't know of any such writing. Presumably it exists, and I'm hoping somebody can point me to it, but I simply haven't encountered anything of the sort. Another commenter talked about the excitement of being able to manipulate real-world objects. Maybe when engineer types get excited about "IoT" it is really just because this is the first time they are imagining that firmware hacking could be within their reach? Firmware is old hat to me and mixing the internet into it sounds like a recipe for disaster, but maybe if people are used to thinking of themselves as web developers, and don't realize that it's already easy to manipulate hardware and this has nothing to do with the Internet, they would read "IoT" as "I can control it". For me, though, "IoT" implies that "it is no longer mine to control".

by dalke 11y ago

marssaxman 11y ago

I don't know either; it came with the house. It hasn't proven to be error-prone, though, probably because devices like it have been available off-the-shelf for thirty years.

dalke 11y ago
The equivalent of the you of 30 years ago would have asked the same questions about the then-new programmable timer-based devices. The equivalent of you in 30 years might, on the other hand, consider secure network-controlled thermostats to be normal off-the-shelf technology.
- marssaxman 11y ago
  Sure, I'm aware of that process, but that's not really what I'm asking. Thirty years ago, were I feeling skeptical about programmable thermostats, I could have asked why such a thing would be worthwhile, and someone could have explained how I could save money on heating by having my house cool down while I was asleep and then warm up again before I got up in the morning. We could then have a reasonable conversation about the risks and benefits of the new technology, about whether this new ability justified the increased cost and decreased reliability implied by the added automation. With this IoT stuff, though, I feel like someone is trying to sell me glow-in-the-dark sunglasses, or an electric belt buckle. Okay, so you can embed a TCP stack and a terrible web interface in this gadget, that's great, but so what? What problem is it supposed to solve? I can't even have the conversation about whether this technology is worth its extra cost, because nobody within my filter-bubble is explaining what the potential benefit is supposed to be. I'm commenting about it here because I hope somebody can point me to wherever it is that people are talking about the potential benefits of IOT devices, which might even theoretically justify them, because right now all I see are lots of really obvious downsides.
  - dalke 11y ago
    paulddraper's answer gave two examples of new abilities - the ability switch to vacation mode after starting a long trip, and the ability to turn the heat on shortly before arriving home. You write: "With this IoT stuff, though, I feel like someone is trying to sell me glow-in-the-dark sunglasses" I think a better example is, why in the early 1980s would you want to buy a microcomputer? Here's an example from 1983 concerning the IBM PCjr - https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1320&dat=19831230&id=isYxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=m-kDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2959,4276070&hl=e https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1320&dat=19831230&id=... . It came with 12 miniprograms, used 'to put the first-time user at ease', include 'a word game, a recipe organizer, a home-loan calculator and a checkbook program'. Does that sound like it's worth $1,000 in 1983 dollars ($2,300 in 2016 dollars)? FWIW, my personal experience is that it wasn't worthwhile on an early 1980s micro to keep track of recipes or the checkbook. Certainly others thought otherwise, but for many people the practical uses were also an excuse to buy a machine that you could play games on. So, perhaps think of the many IoT devices as fun games for the early adopters, rather than a serious cost savings that the last adopters would want?
    - marssaxman 11y ago
      That makes sense. I wish I knew what the IoT equivalent of a video game was, though. And while early-80s computers may not have actually done that many practical things, there were at least lots of speculative articles enthusing about the practical things they would be doing in the near future, and decades' worth of science fiction imagining impractical things they might be doing in the farther future. With the IoT, I don't know of any such writing. Presumably it exists, and I'm hoping somebody can point me to it, but I simply haven't encountered anything of the sort. Another commenter talked about the excitement of being able to manipulate real-world objects. Maybe when engineer types get excited about "IoT" it is really just because this is the first time they are imagining that firmware hacking could be within their reach? Firmware is old hat to me and mixing the internet into it sounds like a recipe for disaster, but maybe if people are used to thinking of themselves as web developers, and don't realize that it's already easy to manipulate hardware and this has nothing to do with the Internet, they would read "IoT" as "I can control it". For me, though, "IoT" implies that "it is no longer mine to control".