7 ms·

The word "democracy" has, surprisingly, shifted slightly in meaning over the last 2500 years or so. The most unfortunate part of this is a small but annoying ca

by taejo 11y ago

The word "democracy" has, surprisingly, shifted slightly in meaning over the last 2500 years or so. The most unfortunate part of this is a small but annoying cadre of "America is not a democracy, it's a republic" pedants.

lr4444lr 11y ago
I disagree. The founders of the United States very deliberately avoided democracy, as strictly defined, in lieu of a complex layering of representative government, to secure a set of values in public governance and personal life. That system has undergone evolution over time, and has as often as not hit "progress" when the law triumphed over the majority of popular opinion. In the briefing of this study, certain simplistic generalizations are made which I don't know that most people would agree with. The reporting should be clear.
- dalke 11y ago
  > avoided democracy, as strictly defined Only a pedant insists that every else restrict themselves to the strictest of definitions. Definition change over 200 years. Madison in Federalist #10, made a distinction between "pure democracy" - "by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person" - and a "republic" - "by which I mean a government in which the scheme of representation takes place". You'll notice that only says a republic isn't a "pure democracy". It doesn't say that a republic isn't a form of democracy.
  - Synaesthesia 11y ago
    It's a form of democracy, a weak form though.
    - dalke 11y ago
      Why is "weak" a useful adjective?
      - Synaesthesia 11y ago
        Let me be more precise, I think representative democracy is a weaker form of democracy than direct democracy, and less desirable. The amount of real democracy we have these days is virtually nil, as in say over the affairs of our daily lives.
        dalke 11y ago
        I don't think it's meaningful to use 'weaker' or 'pure' because it carries with it a moral dimension that says more about the speaker's views than the underlying social desirability or effectiveness. I do not know enough to give a meaningful view on nuances of different forms of democratic governance. I will point out that much of the affairs of our daily lives take place in command hierarchical, aka, the workplace. The pressure (from corporate media and rich people) is often to run government more like a business. It should be to run a business like a democracy.
        Synaesthesia 11y ago
        I don't think it was the wrong adjective, my statement was maybe with too little context, but I think "weak" is correct. Perhaps meaningful democracy would be a better choice. I agree absolutely with you on the workplace, more people should start realizing that.
        dalke 11y ago
        Yes, I think you think 'weak' is correct. Now tell a lower-r republican that their political system is weak and not meaningful, and see if the response is a knee-jerk reaction to the term 'weak' or a more thoughtful inquiry on how it might be improved. "Weak" is also a broad term. Even if you come in with the terms first, you shouldn't use definitions that can easily be transformed to mean the opposite. Many people do not think that a direct democracy can scale beyond a few thousand people. They may therefore say that direct democracy is "weak", because of that failing, and that it's "meaningless" for a large country like the US.
  - taejo 11y ago
    This quote by Madison seems to be the whole source of the pedantry, because it's an affliction which only seems to afflict Americans. Since the US is neither the source nor the subject of this report, it's particularly irrelevant. Most of us are happy to say "direct democracy" or "Athenian democracy" if that's what we mean. On the other hand, a popularly-elected dictatorship would be justified in calling itself a republic. It's useful to have a term which includes direct and representative democracies, while excluding dictatorships, and "democracy" is the commonly accepted term.
    - dalke 11y ago
      And of course "German Democratic Republic", "Democratic Republic of Vietnam", "Democratic Republic of the Congo", and "Democratic People's Republic of Korea". - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_republic

by taejo 11y ago

lr4444lr 11y ago

I disagree. The founders of the United States very deliberately avoided democracy, as strictly defined, in lieu of a complex layering of representative government, to secure a set of values in public governance and personal life. That system has undergone evolution over time, and has as often as not hit "progress" when the law triumphed over the majority of popular opinion. In the briefing of this study, certain simplistic generalizations are made which I don't know that most people would agree with. The reporting should be clear.

dalke 11y ago
> avoided democracy, as strictly defined Only a pedant insists that every else restrict themselves to the strictest of definitions. Definition change over 200 years. Madison in Federalist #10, made a distinction between "pure democracy" - "by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person" - and a "republic" - "by which I mean a government in which the scheme of representation takes place". You'll notice that only says a republic isn't a "pure democracy". It doesn't say that a republic isn't a form of democracy.
- Synaesthesia 11y ago
  It's a form of democracy, a weak form though.
  - dalke 11y ago
    Why is "weak" a useful adjective?
    - Synaesthesia 11y ago
      Let me be more precise, I think representative democracy is a weaker form of democracy than direct democracy, and less desirable. The amount of real democracy we have these days is virtually nil, as in say over the affairs of our daily lives.
      - dalke 11y ago
        I don't think it's meaningful to use 'weaker' or 'pure' because it carries with it a moral dimension that says more about the speaker's views than the underlying social desirability or effectiveness. I do not know enough to give a meaningful view on nuances of different forms of democratic governance. I will point out that much of the affairs of our daily lives take place in command hierarchical, aka, the workplace. The pressure (from corporate media and rich people) is often to run government more like a business. It should be to run a business like a democracy.
        Synaesthesia 11y ago
        I don't think it was the wrong adjective, my statement was maybe with too little context, but I think "weak" is correct. Perhaps meaningful democracy would be a better choice. I agree absolutely with you on the workplace, more people should start realizing that.
        dalke 11y ago
        Yes, I think you think 'weak' is correct. Now tell a lower-r republican that their political system is weak and not meaningful, and see if the response is a knee-jerk reaction to the term 'weak' or a more thoughtful inquiry on how it might be improved. "Weak" is also a broad term. Even if you come in with the terms first, you shouldn't use definitions that can easily be transformed to mean the opposite. Many people do not think that a direct democracy can scale beyond a few thousand people. They may therefore say that direct democracy is "weak", because of that failing, and that it's "meaningless" for a large country like the US.
- taejo 11y ago
  This quote by Madison seems to be the whole source of the pedantry, because it's an affliction which only seems to afflict Americans. Since the US is neither the source nor the subject of this report, it's particularly irrelevant. Most of us are happy to say "direct democracy" or "Athenian democracy" if that's what we mean. On the other hand, a popularly-elected dictatorship would be justified in calling itself a republic. It's useful to have a term which includes direct and representative democracies, while excluding dictatorships, and "democracy" is the commonly accepted term.
  - dalke 11y ago
    And of course "German Democratic Republic", "Democratic Republic of Vietnam", "Democratic Republic of the Congo", and "Democratic People's Republic of Korea". - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_republic